DD Games - Shoe or Pitch?

[Bigdaddy]

I don't see this discussed much, but it occurred to me that a DD face-up (shoe-dealt) game is generally about 60% better than a pitch game. How do I make such an outlandish statement?

Two reasons - SCORE and Game Speed.

SCORE for the face-up game will be higher due to the additional playing advantage (the greater the pen, the greater the advantage), and average game speed of a pitch game is probably about 70 rounds/hour whereas the shoe-dealt game is probably around 100 per hour under normal conditions.

So I simmed a typical DD game: H17, DOA, NDAS, 66% pen, HO2/ASC, spread 1-4, wong-out @ -8:

Pitch game (face down):SCORE = 48.44 x 70% (game-speed factor) = 33.9 (adjusted SCORE).

Shoe game (face up): SCORE = 54.27 x 100% (game-speed factor) = 54.27 (adjusted SCORE). Improvement in SCORE = 20.37/33.9 = 60%!!!

So let the ploppies feel their cards. I'll take the shoe game!

[jimmybond007]

Interesting. I find there are many times I can get many more rounds in playing a DD pitch game. I dont have a face up DD game around but usually the 6D shoes are crowded by the fleas betting side bets and slowing the game to a crawl. Making the pitch DD a better option a fair amount of the time. I generally only allow a max of 3 other players at a DD game before i take off (depends on how game speed is affected and pen.) Of course the king of HPH is the heads up shoe games. Also depends on the dealer, some are just grinding hands all day going very fast, others cant help themselves but talk too much. I dont mind idle chit chat at the tables but when they STOP dealing to tell me some story it gets annoying.

[Freightman]

The purists will tell you that the influence of the cut card effect in a shoe game makes the pitch game better. My preference is the shoe with the known cut card. This is so I can sim off the cuff with various pens. I can adjust ramps and spread accordingly.

[Stealth]

SCORE for the face-up game will be higher due to the additional playing advantage (the greater the pen, the greater the advantage), and average game speed of a pitch game is probably about 70 rounds/hour whereas the shoe-dealt game is probably around 100 per hour under normal conditions.

Not having much experience with DD shoe games, leave me to ask why is the pen better than pitch games? And why do you consider the speed of the game to be better with a shoe (45% better, 70/100)? I would agree it might be marginally (not 45%) faster in a heads up situation but not sure with a few ploppies aboard. The damn side bets are more of negative than the shoe/pitch question. But then you should not be playing with a lot of ploppies.

I will agree that pen is a major, if not the major, characteristic we desire even better than some rules.

All you confirming and conforming sims prove your statements given that you underlying assumptions are correct. Be careful, you can drown in a lake that is an average of 2 inches deep.

[Bigdaddy]

Not having much experience with DD shoe games, leave me to ask why is the pen better than pitch games? And why do you consider the speed of the game to be better with a shoe (45% better, 70/100)?

I'm not arguing that pen is better in either game. My point is that playing advantage is better in the face-up game, and game speed is better in the face-up game. Adds up to the face-up game being better than the pitch game (all other things equal).

[Meistro123]

Thanks but I'll take the prospect of a rare front loading dealer or a bottom card flash over your dubious score calculations any day. Besides neither of your issues occur in a heads up match which is what you should be aiming for anyway.

[Ryemo]

I think I prefer shoe DD vs pitch. It gives you the ability to count all the cards right away if you're sitting with any other patrons (assuming you can't see their cards). It speeds the game up tremendously if there are side bets, as the dealer won't have to wait for each patron to individually notify him/her that they won/lost the side bet.

And while this may not be true in all cases; I know of one Vegas casino that offers both pitch and shoe DD games. From my experience, you'll find much better pen on their shoe game compared to their pitch. So I always gravitate to their shoe DD first if the option is available and conditions are right.