Fair Price for Calling Someone in for a Play?

**houyi** · 01-30-2017, 02:46 AM

Hello all,

For the majority of my plays, I work either alone or with someone I have personally trained to do a specific task. However, I have in the past shared information on plays with a number of fellow APs. One such person, who I met in the field, requested that I let him know if I came across a certain type of play so that he could fly down and work it with me. Through my travels, I have found such a play that is probably worth $1-2 K an hour. I could just as easily work it without him, but we are on a friendly basis and when we run into each other we freely signal each other to come to a table if we have found something. We also liberally share shop information, though most of what he has told me has either been not very useful or somewhat outdated. Every once in a while though, something he told me turns out to still be good, so I have no reason to doubt his honesty.

My question is this: what, if anything, is a fair market value for a "finder's fee" or percentage for calling him to work a specific play with me?

Thanks in advance.

RS · 01-30-2017, 03:56 AM

It......depends.

Is it a very short period thing (1 hour only)?
Is it something that can be done every now and again, but need proper conditions?
Is it a longer period thing, but not on-going (ie: promo for a day or weekend, or every Friday for the month)?
Is it a bounce-back type thing that can be done several times?

Is it an error or something that can be or likely will be corrected soon (ie: wrong paytable on a machine, broken meter progressive, broken card reader)?

High variance? Low variance?

Are you better off getting paid X amount for the information, X amount per hour it's played, X% free-roll, X% of his action (you might lose), are you better off if you both share action (reducing your variance)?

IMO -- best way to go is to take a % of their action or share action all together (perhaps you get a bigger cut or he puts in more hours).

Getting a free-roll can be difficult because it can be hard to figure out what a fair free-roll amount is for the play, especially if it may not last a while (ie: you wouldn't give someone a 10% free-roll on 1 hour session of BJ CC....but you might do it if you were guaranteed 200 hours or something like that).

Paying just for the info is complicated, because if the play gets burnt out quickly, that sucks for the buyer. Or if it's not the same thing as you told him (maybe it gets changed or there's a misunderstanding), that's no good either.

And if the buyer pays $$$/hour playing it, that also sucks for the buyer if/when he's losing.

EDIT: Also be sure to at least consider what would happen to the play if another player came in on it (burnt out quicker)....or perhaps it's much more profitable with 2 people playing (ie: HC'ing).

**ZeeBabar** · 01-30-2017, 04:12 AM

Kind of like a cop (you) pays a snitch (your friend) to catch a crook (the casino). The answer, depends on how big a crook it is, is it a shoplifter, a rapist, a murderer?

**Stealth** · 01-30-2017, 08:03 AM

RS provided good food for thought.

As another example, when using a hired spotter, I suggest they be allotted 35% of EV for the sessions they call a BP in. At the end of the day, pay the spotter a percent of his accumulated EV that is equal to the total Actual/EV % for all the plays.

This gives them fair value for the effort and real value (actual) for the variance adjusted results. In this structure, if the sessions lose, he gets nothing so providing a minimum pay (finders fee, hourly rate,?) may be worthwhile.

In the end, it is whatever two consenting adults can agree on!

**Solo player** · 02-06-2017, 02:53 PM

Paying a "finders" fee? Really?

**houyi** · 02-06-2017, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Solo player

Paying a "finders" fee? Really?

This strikes you as somehow unfair? If someone I knew called me up to say, "Hey Houyi, new idiot table games director is offering 2:1 blackjack this week as a new promotion for their high limit room. I don't have the roll for it but I'll trade you for a x money flat or y percent" I'd definitely consider that fair, and even if the guy didn't ask for it, I'd still give him something if the info was genuine.

**Solo player** · 02-08-2017, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by houyi

This strikes you as somehow unfair? If someone I knew called me up to say, "Hey Houyi, new idiot table games director is offering 2:1 blackjack this week as a new promotion for their high limit room. I don't have the roll for it but I'll trade you for a x money flat or y percent" I'd definitely consider that fair, and even if the guy didn't ask for it, I'd still give him something if the info was genuine.

Unfair? No. Possible scam? Yes! If someone called to tell me about a hot game but was looking for a hand out in return I would be skeptical to say the least. Especially if they had no bank to play on. After years of advantage play one develops there own network of players who freely share info. New players should not be paying anyone for game info. Scammers thieves and degenerates are in every place of our society. And casinos are not void of them. If, like you say it is some "friend" of yours... Then its up to you.

**pilotzone** · 02-19-2017, 06:27 PM

Usually if you are called to a good/great game, and 1 or 2k per hr would qualify as pretty dam good. Rate is 25-30% of the win, none of the loss. If it is a very short play, one day or less, 15-20%.

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**pilotzone** · 02-19-2017, 06:33 PM

**Stealth** · 02-19-2017, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by CanadaKevinB

Usually if you are called to a good/great game, and 1 or 2k per hr would qualify as pretty dam good. Rate is 25-30% of the win, none of the loss. If it is a very short play, one day or less, 15-20%.

You might want to reevaluate this if it is to continue over some time. As presented it is a huge free roll that can not be sustained over time. Maybe you can do this for a night or so but you really don't want a steady diet of this program.

**pilotzone** · 02-19-2017, 09:12 PM

The more

**Stealth** · 02-19-2017, 09:26 PM

The game may be worth 2K in EV but the variance will break you in this deal.

RS · 02-20-2017, 04:23 AM

It depends on the variance of the play. The best way to figure this out (without doing the math and perhaps second guessing yourself) is by running a sim. Unless it's something like blackjack, which is a bit more difficult (IMO) to sim and do the math on....for the most part, most games are fairly simple to run an analysis on -- and see what your true value is if you're giving someone else an X% free-roll.