Odd Spanish 21

**Phoebe** · 01-27-2017, 07:21 AM

I found a Spanish 21 game:

8 decks, H17, no redouble, Bonus limited to 3:2 (no suited or spade), no Super Bonus
but Early surrender vs Ace and 10
Dealer check 10 and Ace after surrender closed.

According my sim in CVData, HE is 0.33% with Basic Strategy only Total Dependant.
MGP 'BJ CA give a poorest 0.63%

Obviously, someone is wrong (MGP, Norm or me). Who ?
Who could check, please ?

Of course, I have take in account https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/sh...l=1#post214103

**Gronbog** · 01-27-2017, 08:26 AM

You should be aware that (assuming you configured it correctly) the CA will provide the HE for the proper adjusted strategy, which will be different due to the limited bonuses. You should also check whether CVData knows the correct strategy for Spanish with these rules. Having said that, given these considerations, the HE given by the CA should not be greater than the one from the sim, so something is still wrong somewhere.

Since you said that bonuses are limited to 3:2, I assume that also means no 6 or 7+ cards bonuses for 21. Correct?

I could simulate this game for you, with the correct adjusted basic strategy, but you will have to be patient, as I have a few other things on my plate.

**Member Name Hidden** · 01-27-2017, 08:32 AM

That's not SP21. Sp21 is a patented game. The casino is required to deal the game according to the sets of patented rules. They would require a waiver from the patent holder to alter the rules and that isn't going to happen. If they hang a placard on the table saying SP21 they can only have a match the dealer side bet, they must deal the S17 game by the patented rules, or the H17 by the patented rules either with or without redouble. Any casino regulator that okays a change in the rules without first demanding a waiver from the patent holder is complicit in violating federal patent law. It is like a governing body allowing a restaurant to put a sign on the tap saying it dispenses coke and pouring from that tap when you order coke but the tap actually dispenses a different cola product. Norm, I am sure will be happy to tell you about how this would be a copyright violation. The regulating authorities that okay such copyright violations are risking their right to regulate gaming and the casinos risk 6 figure fines and damages from both player class action suit and copyright infringement from the patent holder. One day the casinos that blatantly violate federal patent law and the gaming overseers that okay it will be taken to task for these violations.

**Phoebe** · 01-27-2017, 08:50 AM

Thank you very much, Gronbog.

In CVData I used the strategy generated by the CA and DDR Strategy from Wizard of Odds.
I had think a moment that this last was wrong but that would increase HE in CVData.
Correct, no 6 or 7+ cards Bonuses.

Game is not named Spanish 21.
I use myself this name as a shortcut not to have to explain all rules.
And Queens (not X) are removed. Does it matters ? :-)

**Gronbog** · 01-27-2017, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Philippe B

And Queens (not X) are removed. Does it matters ? :-)

No, this does not matter.

**Phoebe** · 01-27-2017, 09:47 AM

I think that you missed my smile for Mister Anonymous :-)

**Gronbog** · 01-27-2017, 09:56 AM

Sorry -- no insult to your intelligence was intended!

**Freightman** · 01-27-2017, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Member Name Hidden

That's not SP21. Sp21 is a patented game. The casino is required to deal the game according to the sets of patented rules. They would require a waiver from the patent holder to alter the rules and that isn't going to happen. If they hang a placard on the table saying SP21 they can only have a match the dealer side bet, they must deal the S17 game by the patented rules, or the H17 by the patented rules either with or without redouble. Any casino regulator that okays a change in the rules without first demanding a waiver from the patent holder is complicit in violating federal patent law. It is like a governing body allowing a restaurant to put a sign on the tap saying it dispenses coke and pouring from that tap when you order coke but the tap actually dispenses a different cola product. Norm, I am sure will be happy to tell you about how this would be a copyright violation. The regulating authorities that okay such copyright violations are risking their right to regulate gaming and the casinos risk 6 figure fines and damages from both player class action suit and copyright infringement from the patent holder. One day the casinos that blatantly violate federal patent law and the gaming overseers that okay it will be taken to task for these violations.

How interesting. Never looked at it from that perspective. There is a store that I am aware of that does (likely not intentional) violate one of the rules, in violation if your comments regarding patent infringement, as well as the discrepancy from regulatory rules. I haven't played the game since it went CSM, and for other reasons no longer applicable, never made an issue if it.

I'm wondering about some anonymous fun on the issue, as it could affect another entity with the same principals.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 01-27-2017, 10:35 AM

This game is NOT a good game. 8 decks, H17 with full E.S. has a H.E. of 0.54%

Table max is (under) $200; and "associated costs" for playing this are VERY high.

Pursuing this as an exploitable opportunity is implausible for several reasons, that

are not revealed here. This topic is not worth the time / effort exploring it.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 01-27-2017, 10:50 AM

I have considerable information on this odd game.

I am not at liberty to share "the skinny" on the game.

However, let it suffice to say that Phillippe B. has

left out several salient rules, making this ultra-low

stakes game, simply unplayable.

Interested parties may contact me privately, but this

game is NOT exploitable. Not in any way.

**All Clear** · 01-27-2017, 10:54 AM

This game is offered on many cruise ships, and is often called "Fun 21" (not the same as SuperFun 21, which is a different game).

I saw this game on Holland America cruise line, and Norwegian. I am surprised no one else mentioned this- like the OP wrote, there are no Queens (but there are tens).

The game I played was S17 (the dealer stood on soft 17), and after splitting, no 3:2 bonuses were paid. This wasn't listed on the felt, but when I split and drew to a 5 card 21, I was paid even money, which the floor confirmed was correct. Aside from that, the game is as the OP described. EARLY Surrender against A and T, the dealer checks for blackjack after surrender is offered, there are no 2:1 or 3:1 bonuses, no super bonus, and I would guess that in his game also, bonuses aren't paid after splitting (they are in regular Spanish 21).

For those that (surprisingly) haven't heard of the game, do a Google search for "cruise, fun 21" (without the quotes).

A note for those considering counting cards, that the deck was cut in half for both blackjack and Fun 21 (this game) on all tables. Don't recall if it was 6 or 8 decks.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 01-27-2017, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by All Clear

" ... the deck was cut in half on all tables. Don't recall if it was 6 or 8 decks."

The shoe is 8 decks and H17.
The E.S. (in this game) is held to be worth 0.27%
(and 0.21% with 8 decks and S17).

**Frank Galvin** · 01-27-2017, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by All Clear

This game is offered on many cruise ships, and is often called "Fun 21" (not the same as SuperFun 21, which is a different game).

I saw this game on Holland America cruise line, and Norwegian. I am surprised no one else mentioned this- like the OP wrote, there are no Queens (but there are tens).

***

A note for those considering counting cards, that the deck was cut in half for both blackjack and Fun 21 (this game) on all tables. Don't recall if it was 6 or 8 decks.

This past summer, on the HAL Zuiderdam (Copenhagen to St. Petersburg, and back), the game was dealt from 8D shoe, 3 decks cut off. Actually sent an e-mail to a well-known poster here, and he told me to steer clear of it, since the payout (bonus) tables are dramatically worse than SP 21.

P.S. - The regularly crowded blackjack tables were also dealt from 8D shoe, with approximately 3 decks cut off.