OSN and cheating

[blueman]

My buddy does hole carding and card counting. He got caught hole carding a carnival game. Gaming arrested him and took him to the back room. They held him for 4 hours.

They finally released him. They put him in OSN as a legit cheater. How will this label in OSN affect his future play?

He has done some counting since, but is afraid to do any more hole carding.

(Please, no legal advice here. Hes taking care of that. Just wants to know how this will affect his future play as being labelled a cheater in osn... he isnt subscribed to here, hence me posting on his behalf.)

[ZeeBabar]

I don't know much at all about hole carding. My understanding is that it's possible to spot the hole card based upon two or three things. One is when, due to poor dealer skills, the hole card could be seen (usually from first base) and another is when a partner or someone standing or sitting elsewhere (another nearby table) Ivan see and signals a player as to what he sees as the hole card.

Thus, I don't understand how you can be backed off or called a cheater because you were able to see the holecard and why that cannot be handled by simply removing the dealer (send him for extra training or firing him)and sending another to a table. Basically, I thought hole carding was probably due to correctable dealer skills and could be eliminated without need to back off anyone.

Maybe its the card counting that got him in trouble.

[rxgamble]

I don't know much at all about hole carding. My understanding is that it's possible to spot the hole card based upon two or three things. One is when, due to poor dealer skills, the hole card could be seen (usually from first base) and another is when a partner or someone standing or sitting elsewhere (another nearby table) Ivan see and signals a player as to what he sees as the hole card.

Thus, I don't understand how you can be backed off or called a cheater because you were able to see the holecard and why that cannot be handled by simply removing the dealer (send him for extra training or firing him)and sending another to a table. Basically, I thought hole carding was probably due to correctable dealer skills and could be eliminated without need to back off anyone.

Maybe its the card counting that got him in trouble.

Getting the holecard when not seated at the flashing dealer’s table and sending the info to a BP is called spooking and it’s very much illegal, don’t do it. I’ve passed up many of those spots. Not worth it.

[Banker]

Getting the holecard when not seated at the flashing dealer’s table and sending the info to a BP is called spooking and it’s very much illegal, don’t do it. I’ve passed up many of those spots. Not worth it.

Can you provide reference or information that spooking is "very much illegal"

[BankerCA]

Can you provide reference or information that spooking is "very much illegal"

I am curious about this as well...

The Nevada Supreme Court decision didn't issue a specific decision on "spooking".

I always thought it was a gray area that would carry less protection under the Einbinder and Dalben decision vs. being seated at the table in which the cards are being observed.

[21forme]

I am curious about this a well...

The Nevada Supreme Court decision didn't issue a specific decision on "spooking".

I always thought it was a gray area that would carry less protection under the Einbinder and Dalben decision vs. being seated at the table in which the cards are being observed.

Sounds like a good question to send into GWAE for Bob N's next appearance.

[rxgamble]

I am curious about this a well...

The Nevada Supreme Court decision didn't issue a specific decision on "spooking".

I always thought it was a gray area that would carry less protection under the Einbinder and Dalben decision vs. being seated at the table in which the cards are being observed.

I don’t have anything in front of me but isn’t holecarding legal because all the info is available to everyone at the table, or some other, better wording of that? At least that’s the spirit of the ruling as I’ve always believed after reading for myself and talking to lawyers.

[BankerCA]

I don’t have anything in front of me but isn’t holecarding legal because all the info is available to everyone at the table, or some other, better wording of that?

Yes, that is the gist of it. The decision is based on the player simply using the "Powers of Observation" that would have been available to any player in that seat.

Would the court had a different opinion if the "Powers of Observation" were used from across the room?
What about laying your head horizontally 1" from the felt?

Its Possible.

The LINE is drawn somewhere. Where that LINE lays is often a matter of opinion until a decision is issued by a court and case law is established.


It would be my assumption that most lawyers would advise against "Spooking" since to my knowledge there has been no specific case law that specifically addresses it.

In a state that gets a large portion of its income from the gambling industry, it wouldn't surprise to see the District Attorney bring charges for "spooking".

Sounds like a good question to send into GWAE for Bob N's next appearance.

Yeah, I would be curious as to what he has to say.

[AndretheGiant]

My buddy does hole carding and card counting. He got caught hole carding a carnival game. Gaming arrested him and took him to the back room. They held him for 4 hours.

They finally released him. They put him in OSN as a legit cheater. How will this label in OSN affect his future play?

He has done some counting since, but is afraid to do any more hole carding.

(Please, no legal advice here. Hes taking care of that. Just wants to know how this will affect his future play as being labelled a cheater in osn... he isnt subscribed to here, hence me posting on his behalf.)

I don't think it would cause any problems in U.S. casinos moreso than being in Osn to begin with but in other countries it might be a concern,if in fact they did label him as a cheater.

[blueman]

Hes gotten backed off from blackjack with no problems, just gun shy to hole card again

[Frank Galvin]

1. Although you request no legal discussion, as she/he has already addressed that, I hope that means she/he has contacted, and is retaining legal counsel.

2. This fact situation definitely gives rise to analysis by his/her attorney as to whether the involved parties (the casino, the gaming commission, and OSN) engaged in a bevy of torts, ranging from false imprisonment, battery, libel, just to identify the most obvious. I will refrain from further legal discussion, other than to note it is highly likely, based upon the limited facts you shared (assuming those are accurately portrayed), that your friend has a pretty decent set of claims for litigation.

3. I would also expect that your friend may be counselled to play at another casino that uses OSN's services, as a back-off or trespass there, will add additional claims and potential deep pockets for a jury verdict (think libel and defamation of character, and interference with contract, or in some jurisdictions, with advantageous economic opportunities).

My apologies if I commented about legal issues, but your ultimate question begs for the consequences of OSN's determination and citing of her/him as a "cheater" in their database and reports. In this instance she/he may very well be financially impacted by such labeling when visiting other casinos, but OSN should likewise suffer consequences for their distribution of such labelling of your friend.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

I accept whatever Frank Galvin says when it comes to legal matters.

However, I cannot imagine why the casino is unidentified.

Is it a Native American enterprise, as I strongly suspect ?

If so, the victim is without legal resource; except in the odd

case (e.g. Seminole Casinos) Native American sovereignty rules.

[Three]

I accept whatever Frank Galvin says when it comes to legal matters.

However, I cannot imagine why the casino is unidentified.

Is it a Native American enterprise, as I strongly suspect ?

If so, the victim is without legal resource.

Accept in the odd case (e.g. Seminole Casinos) sovereignty rules.

As the self-appointed official grammar and spelling police for the site, Don is going to have a field day with this post.