Strange bust-push rule

[BlackJackAgain]

Came across this weird rule, looks like something lifted out of "California BJ" and adapted into a regular game:
if player busts with 23, 24, 25 the bet remains on the busted cards, and if the dealer subsequently busts with a higher total the bet is returned (ie a push).

I tried to sim this with CVD, got a value of ~ 0.4% EV.

Would be glad to know if anyone looked at this - and if so am I ballpark correct...

[Freightman]

Some General thoughts
Dealer push 22 is -6.91.

Dealer must bust for you to have a shot.
Player 22, 23, 26 always loses
Player pushes his 23 if dealer has 24,25,26.
Player pushes his 24 if dealer has 25,26.
Player pushes his 25 if dealer has 26.

Can be worked further from there. Don't think .4 is close.

[Dog Hand]

Came across this weird rule, looks like something lifted out of "California BJ" and adapted into a regular game:
if player busts with 23, 24, 25 the bet remains on the busted cards, and if the dealer subsequently busts with a higher total the bet is returned (ie a push).

I tried to sim this with CVD, got a value of ~ 0.4% EV.

Would be glad to know if anyone looked at this - and if so am I ballpark correct...

bj21abc,

I analyzed a similar rule and posted the results at bj21: if you have Green Chip access, you can see the post here:

https://bj21.com/boards/green-chip-f...?page=1#unread

Briefly, for a H17 6D DA2 DAS game with the player using normal B.S., the "Lower Bust Push" rule is worth +1.6%.

The difference is in my analysis the player also pushed with 22 if the dealer busted with more than 22: I take it that's not the case for your game.

From my bj21 post, just over half of the gain (0.83%) is from 22 vs. 23-26, so without that the LBP23+ rule you described is worth +0.77% if the player uses normal B.S. Note that with specialized B.S. the gain would he higher.

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand

[ShipTheCookies]

Is it this game?

https://wizardofodds.com/games/california-blackjack/

Edit: nevermind, I missed where you said the rule was lifted from the game I linked to.

[BlackJackAgain]

Thanks,

I am wondering why my sims were different (attached - perhaps should be in the software forum....). I used 3 custom bonuses, and had a second player on the sim playing no-bust so the dealer would always play out the hand.

Small difference is that the player busted hand has to be 3 cards only - don't see it making that much of a difference....

Capture.JPG

bj21abc,

I analyzed a similar rule and posted the results at bj21: if you have Green Chip access, you can see the post here:

https://bj21.com/boards/green-chip-f...?page=1#unread

Briefly, for a H17 6D DA2 DAS game with the player using normal B.S., the "Lower Bust Push" rule is worth +1.6%.

The difference is in my analysis the player also pushed with 22 if the dealer busted with more than 22: I take it that's not the case for your game.

From my bj21 post, just over half of the gain (0.83%) is from 22 vs. 23-26, so without that the LBP23+ rule you described is worth +0.77% if the player uses normal B.S. Note that with specialized B.S. the gain would he higher.

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand

[Dog Hand]

Thanks,

I am wondering why my sims were different (attached - perhaps should be in the software forum....). I used 3 custom bonuses, and had a second player on the sim playing no-bust so the dealer would always play out the hand.

Small difference is that the player busted hand has to be 3 cards only - don't see it making that much of a difference....

<snip>

bj21abc,

Two points:

1. You should have more than 1 "no-bust" player, because if he gets a BJ and you bust, the dealer will not complete her hand. I usually use 3 "no-bust" players in such cases. Perhaps someday Norm will include a "Dealer Must Complete Hand" option.

2. The difference between getting the bonus on a player bust of any number of cards vs. only 3 cards is quite significant: in the 3-card case, the player automatically cannot receive the bonus if his first two cards total 12 or less or contain an Ace.

As a check, re-run your sim without the 3-card restriction to see if our results agree.

Dog Hand

[BlackJackAgain]

Great, thanks !!

I did actually add on more no-bust players after I read your initial post again, good to know that there is a significant difference with 3 cards. I'll run it again and post the results, might help someone.

D.

bj21abc,

Two points:

1. You should have more than 1 "no-bust" player, because if he gets a BJ and you bust, the dealer will not complete her hand. I usually use 3 "no-bust" players in such cases. Perhaps someday Norm will include a "Dealer Must Complete Hand" option.

2. The difference between getting the bonus on a player bust of any number of cards vs. only 3 cards is quite significant: in the 3-card case, the player automatically cannot receive the bonus if his first two cards total 12 or less or contain an Ace.

As a check, re-run your sim without the 3-card restriction to see if our results agree.

Dog Hand

[Freightman]

bj21abc,

Two points:

1. You should have more than 1 "no-bust" player, because if he gets a BJ and you bust, the dealer will not complete her hand. I usually use 3 "no-bust" players in such cases. Perhaps someday Norm will include a "Dealer Must Complete Hand" option.

2. The difference between getting the bonus on a player bust of any number of cards vs. only 3 cards is quite significant: in the 3-card case, the player automatically cannot receive the bonus if his first two cards total 12 or less or contain an Ace.

As a check, re-run your sim without the 3-card restriction to see if our results agree.

Dog Hand

Even though I'll never likely find this side bet, more typical hum drum first class commentary by Dog Hand.

[JamesonDetroit]

Not sure that I'll encounter such a game, but I'm curious: do (or should) indexes, or basic strategy, change with these rules? Not looking for specifics unless someone has them handy; mainly just asking on a theoretical basis if they would or wouldn't change.

[RS]

Theoretically they at least could change. I'm not familiar with the game or strategy, but with such a rule change, it absolutely could change the strategy. I'm not saying there is a different strategy, just that there is potential given these rule changes.

[BlackJackAgain]

This is what I get. About 0.1% away (sum total) from your simulations - good enough for me. I went with 0.4% for the three-card rule.

D.


Capture.JPG

[BlackJackAgain]

I was reading through this again. In response to some of the questions that went unanswered, yes there is a strategy for this.

IIRC discount gambling published one.

Some of these california games have very player friendly rules, as the card room couldn't care less about the players' edge.