Ken uston

**Barney112** · 11-07-2016, 07:23 AM

I don't think I could do 3 level count

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**Frank Galvin** · 11-07-2016, 10:31 AM

moses,

Thanks for your prior efforts you made with simulating VAPC results for me. We had many discussions about the relative strengths and weaknesses of that counting system (when I was using it).

But for counting purposes, it is actually a simple system to learn and use at the tables (well, one can make it as complex as they wish depending upon the extent to which index plays are learned, and side counts deployed). The 10s (-3 tag value) cancel out ("negate") each 5 (+3 tag value). Tag value of +2, for 2, 3, 4, 6, 7 (simple to keep track), and -1 for 9.

If you move the tag value from 9 to Ace (as suggested by moses), then it might make it usable for someone who does not wish to side count Aces. However, that is an additional comprise as you have reckoned the Aces, thereby weakening the strength (which in my mind immediately is rephrased/rebranded as added value) of the count (at least its PE) from its unreckoned status. With Aces being unreckoned, you would definitely employ an Ace side count (just as a card counter would do if using either Advanced Omega II, Hi-Opt II and possibly Hi-Opt I) . It's all about the trade-offs.

VAPC modified by moses: PE - 0.6473; BC - 0.9491; and IC - 0.8876

VAPC unmodified: PE - 0.6789 (increased); BC - 0.9177 (decreased); and IC - 0.8876 (unchanged)

However, VAPC with Ace side count increases BC by a factor of approximately 0.070 from 0.9177 to slightly higher than 0.98, and likely further improves IC (since you know when there is a surplus/deficit of Aces remaining, which situation would tend to evidence a reduction or increase in the probability that the Dealer has a 10 value card underneath his/her Ace).

**Fire Walker** · 11-07-2016, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Barney112

I don't think I could do 3 level count

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I once thought the same about doing a level 2 count, even. Fast forward, I'm using a level 2 and 3 count simultaneously in live play with results I never thought possible.
If you set your mind on “whatever it takes to succeed”, employ slow / coordination practice techniques daily, track your progress, and have the patience to make it happen (4…5…6 months?), it will happen.

**ZeeBabar** · 11-07-2016, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Fire Walker

I once thought the same about doing a level 2 count, even. Fast forward, I'm using a level 2 and 3 count simultaneously in live play with results I never thought possible.
If you set your mind on “whatever it takes to succeed”, employ slow / coordination practice techniques daily, track your progress, and have the patience to make it happen (4…5…6 months?), it will happen.

Without meaning to start another count debate, there are many respected AP's and authors who would attribute your success to variance and/or diligence in learning your system and your discipline but disagree that your count is all that superior to a good level one count. There is just not that much evidence that a level 3 count is more than, say 10%, superior to HiLo in typical DD or multideck games with H17, no S games found in most places.

**Fire Walker** · 11-07-2016, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by ZeeBabar

Without meaning to start another count debate, there are many respected AP's and authors who would attribute your success to variance and/or diligence in learning your system and your discipline but disagree that your count is all that superior to a good level one count. There is just not that much evidence that a level 3 count is more than, say 10%, superior to HiLo in typical DD or multideck games with H17, no S games found in most places.

I did not write what I wrote to brag or start a pissing contest. (What I am doing is irrelevant because: 1) I’m not playing the traditional game anymore, and 2) I’m not using a traditional linear system). I was merely responding to the OP’s comment on perceived capabilities and my personal experience with a similar sentiment in the past. That said, I’m not going into a diatribe here. The OP can go back and research how to exponentially increase personal results. (i.e. Tthree’s post: “What is the evolution of skillz worth to a counter. It is like peeling an onion”).

**Gramazeka** · 11-07-2016, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Fire Walker

I once thought the same about doing a level 2 count, even. Fast forward, I'm using a level 2 and 3 count simultaneously in live play with results I never thought possible.
If you set your mind on “whatever it takes to succeed”, employ slow / coordination practice techniques daily, track your progress, and have the patience to make it happen (4…5…6 months?), it will happen.

I used Hi Lo 5 level ( RC count+ TC count+ slug count + segment count + outside card count). )))

**Barney112** · 11-07-2016, 08:17 PM

Thanks

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**Barney112** · 11-07-2016, 08:32 PM

I think I will try it . Thank you I will keep you posted and everyone

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**seriousplayer** · 11-07-2016, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Gramazeka

I used Hi Lo 5 level ( RC count+ TC count+ slug count + segment count + outside card count). )))

I would be interested if you can come out of retirement and give a class in sequencing. All I know about sequencing is in weak shuffles the orders of some cards will be preserved.

**Gramazeka** · 11-07-2016, 11:27 PM

I am not the master sequencing, i am the big practice master of the ST. ))

**seriousplayer** · 11-08-2016, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by Gramazeka

I am not the master sequencing, i am the big practice master of the ST. ))

Sequencing is a form of shuffle tracking, right? The make up of the cards are tracked through the shuffle. I think the only difference is that in shuffle tracking AP tends to focus on slugs and segments. In a weak shuffle three cards that are place next to each other ends up close to each other in a weak shuffle.