Planning my next step

[Freightman]

To be clear I was speaking about double deck as that was the OPs primary inquiry. But it would be interesting to hear both Don and Norm's point of view in a "go back in time" scenario.

Zee, it seems to me I remember hearing Don talk about reduced variance with RPC over HiLO. That alone would be worth a simple step.

Moses, superior counts tend to increase variance as more plus situations tend to be identified. On the opposite side of the coin, variance is reduced where better systems identify weakness which weaker systems would identify as being positive.

Also, you mentioned somewhere in this thread? about being humble. I'm also humble, and modest

[ZeeBabar]

I think you are alot smarter than you think you are.

I am not so sure. Unsure first that I could handle learning a different count and indexes. Second, that it's worth it. Folks on another forum seem to think HiLo is just fine for DD and finally, whether I am playing the right games. I play DD games, H17, pen of maybe 65%. In my last trip, I often was playing with 2 other folks, and variance was not in my favor. I should consider playing 6dck games when DD games are not available heads up or with one other player.

[Freightman]

I am not so sure. Unsure first that I could handle learning a different count and indexes. Second, that it's worth it. Folks on another forum seem to think HiLo is just fine for DD and finally, whether I am playing the right games. I play DD games, H17, pen of maybe 65%. In my last trip, I often was playing with 2 other folks, and variance was not in my favor. I should consider playing 6dck games when DD games are not available heads up or with one other player.

Zee, for you - you don't like change, so what do you do. Same indices - go to halves? Think the fractional aspect would drive you buggy. Side count aces or 7's? It is not in Your future for shoes. It really isn't that tough in double deck.

Practice at home - pick one or the other. ThT us one way to tweak the playing efficiency of a double deck game. Bear said he played hi lo at de. Maybe he can chime in if he used a side count. Maybe Flash can also chime in and advise the effect on playing efficiency of either 7's or aces.

[ZeeBabar]

Zee, for you - you don't like change, so what do you do. Same indices - go to halves? Think the fractional aspect would drive you buggy. Side count aces or 7's? It is not in Your future for shoes. It really isn't that tough in double deck.

Practice at home - pick one or the other. ThT us one way to tweak the playing efficiency of a double deck game. Bear said he played hi lo at de. Maybe he can chime in if he used a side count. Maybe Flash can also chime in and advise the effect on playing efficiency of either 7's or aces.

The suggestion I got from Bear and others at the other site was to keep with HiLo and keep an Ace sdecount for Playing efficiency.

the question is how to utilize the Aces for PE. I suppose one is the doubling decision of 9,2 (and getting an Ace) but any advice on the dos and don't's when a DD is Ace rich or poor would help.

[Ryemo]

The suggestion I got from Bear and others at the other site was to keep with HiLo and keep an Ace sdecount for Playing efficiency.

the question is how to utilize the Aces for PE. I suppose one is the doubling decision of 9,2 (and getting an Ace) but any advice on the dos and don't's when a DD is Ace rich or poor would help.

If I were you, I would follow Bear's advice and stick to Hi Lo exclusively. Forget side counting aces. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to side count using Hi Lo. Just play low stakes, try to employ an 8:1 spread on DD, and just grind out the hours.

[Meistro123]

The most important application for an ace side count with hi lo is for insurance. If the deck is ace rich you make a temporary adjustment to your running count of -2 for each extra ace. If it is ace poor you make an adjustment of +2 For example :

The running count is +3 and .5 decks have been dealt. 1.5 remaining. You have seen 3 aces. Normally you expect to see two aces per half deck so the deck is now 1 ace poor. You adjust your running count to +5 and your true count is now +3 and change. Take your insurance and adjust your running count back to +3.


When side counting aces count them as a, b, c, d, e, f, g & h. Chess players will have the advantage here. You do this so your main count does not get confused.

[cc12b]

I originally switched from HiLo to Zen because I was playing shoes & double deck. Zen offers a strong count AND ease of use. Later on I was solely playing DD games and no shoe games, and since I didn't play much BJ in general (mostly play machines), I considered switching to HOII w/ ASC. After a good while of practice, I determined the increased strength in HOII w/ ASC was more difficult than it was worth (the value being how much better it is than Zen, which was marginal). Switching to HOII also meant it'd be even more difficult to play shoe games in the future, which I knew I still wanted to play in the future (just not at the current time), and decided to scratch the whole HOII thing and revert back to Zen.

I actually found Zen to be easier than HiLo (to me). I found HOII w/ ASC to be much more difficult than I had imagined.

Zen is much more simple than HOII w/ ASC, it's essentially the same thing as HiLo, meaning you only have to worry about RC and TC....don't need to keep a side count, make RC or TC adjustments due to positive or negative excess of remaining aces, etc.


If you play shoes and DD, I'd recommend Zen over any of the other level 2+ counts.

Thanks R.S, I could have start this post but the OP had said it for me, Currently I am using Zen but contemplate to learn HO2. I am using completed Zen version, what version of Zen do you use or recommend? One more thing, if later I want to side-count is it better to switch to to HO2 or keep Zen and SC 9 to improve it's effective? I think if I lost SC 9 It will not have negative effect in my playing.

[RS]

I believe it's called Complete Zen (1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 0, 0, -2, -1) and true counted.

Not sure where to go if from Zen if you wanted to improve further. I suppose first I'd verify it makes sense and worth it to improve to HO2 or Zen w/ a side count.

[Freightman]

The most important application for an ace side count with hi lo is for insurance. If the deck is ace rich you make a temporary adjustment to your running count of -2 for each extra ace. If it is ace poor you make an adjustment of +2 For example :

The running count is +3 and .5 decks have been dealt. 1.5 remaining. You have seen 3 aces. Normally you expect to see two aces per half deck so the deck is now 1 ace poor. You adjust your running count to +5 and your true count is now +3 and change. Take your insurance and adjust your running count back to +3.


When side counting aces count them as a, b, c, d, e, f, g & h. Chess players will have the advantage here. You do this so your main count does not get confused.

When I finally got around to reading OP, thus was the cinclysion I came to - concur.

[Freightman]

Yes, I'd say you and Norm are two of the most humble guys I've never met. Lol

Your 1st paragraph was a little confusing to me. I employ a 4 column count and an adjusted version of Wong Halves when a rare instance the dealer offers deep pen.

This week I only played 6 sessions. There were 2 interrupted and the other 4 met goal. I suppose $1k a week is small potatoes. But the game delivered my humble expectation, plus fed me, and bought me drinks to watch a couple of good ballgames. All large bet hands were shuffled away. It also allowed time to see a couple of good movies, go to a game, workout, and walk.

Normally, I try to play 20 sessions a week and win 57%. But I'm far less motivated to play nowadays.

So Freighter, I can't figure out if there is something wrong with me or something right.

Quite possible you're getting smarter.

[Three]

The suggestion I got from Bear and others at the other site was to keep with HiLo and keep an Ace sdecount for Playing efficiency.

the question is how to utilize the Aces for PE. I suppose one is the doubling decision of 9,2 (and getting an Ace) but any advice on the dos and don't's when a DD is Ace rich or poor would help.

An easy way to wrap your brain around this "how to" for an ace side count using Hilo is to go with a balanced ace side count. You keep Hiopt1 as your main count which has a relatively high PE. You keep a simple balanced ace side count of A -1 and 2 +1. Add the two counts to get a RC for determining a betting TC. This betting TC IS the Hilo TC so you are still using Hilo for betting. The playing decisions are mostly Hiopt1 except for some that are better served by the Hilo count play. These Hilo plays are things like doubling 8, 9, and T as well as splitting 9,9 and T,T and doubling A9. Basically where the ace is a strong card to have in play and the 2 is good to have removed. The skill of keeping a balanced ace side count opens lots of doors for creative uses of counting. It also eliminates the need for accurate quarter deck estimates to get good return on your side counting effort. Deck estimation sensitivity is the same as for an ace reckoned count.

[seriousplayer]

BC only tells you how well the count tags correlate to the full deck EoR's of the ranks. It says nothing about betting accuracy and only gives a relative comparison such as this is better than that. No quantitative comparison can be formed.

I don't know of any card counting system that has 100% betting efficiency. I know that Thorp's Ultimate Count has 100% BC (betting correlation) but it is not the same as betting efficiency. In traditional card counting systems the player keeps a +\- count based on the values of the cards dealt. To obtain the highest edge in card counting the player must track the exact cards dealt and used that information to make strategy deviations based on each card. It would be hard to do using the human mind.