What does a back-off actually look like?

[mofungoo]

Several years ago I found a really nice 2D game at a casino in an state where there was no specific section in the gaming regulations that allowed barring of skilled players. This casino excluded a skilled player who sued them, won, and they got some bad publicity as a result. I started playing there and had a really good positive fluctuation, winning 22 out of 25 sessions I played. On new years eve I was playing at a table with several other players when 3 bosses in suits with nametags showed up and began introducing themselves to the players, shaking their hands and wishing them a happy new year. When they got to me one of the men whose nametag said "Jack" shook my hand and before I could introduce myself said, "And Mo here is trying to keep us from getting our bonus this year". I replied "Everybody's making plenty of money, "Jack", you're going to get a big bonus". Then I turned around and continued playing. The suits all left.

I kept playing there but on some shifts I would get shuffled up when I raised my bet. I quit playing there when the state revised their regulations to allow exclusion of a patron for any reason. Since then that property has been sold and is under new management. I went there recently but there were no decent 2D games, nothing but 6:5.

Names have been changed to protect the guilty.

[dharmaprija]

Knock on wood. Never been BO and if i get my way, never will. Wanna be the man called "nobody", (old cowboy flick). My name is nobody.

[bigplayer]

usually a suit comes up from behind you and asks to speak to you and usually uses these exact words (80% of the time) "We've made a business decision and decided that we can't take your action at blackjack anymore" If you ask why they will either be non committal or tell you that "we don't like you're style of play" or "your action is just too strong for us". They may tell you that you're welcome to play anything else you want (sometimes just slots). 5% of the time it's weird like the pitboss offers you a dinner comp to call it a night or tells you that you're backed off for the rest of the night and to try your luck tomorrow on a different shift. If you're a particularly good customer you may be "flat bet" instead of being backed off. I had one downtown Reno single deck house back me off and then later the table games manager told me I could continue to play their h17 d10 rule of 7 single deck game on a 1-2 prop-bet spread. Horseshoe Tunica used to put players on a 1-3 prop-bet spread on their single deck game but got tired of players spreading $300-900 in plus counts and $300-$100 in minus counts so they now either flat bet or just backoff players. The other 15% of the time it's rude where the pitboss comes up with security and tells you to "color up your chips and these gentlemen will escort you to the cage to cash out and after you do they read the trespass statement to you and tell you never to come back to the casino. Sometimes they will also ask you to come to the security office to "sign the paperwork" (politely decline) and ask you for your ID (also decline). Some tribal casinos won't let you leave and will threaten to cuff and drag you to the backroom to be photographed and sign the trespass statement if you don't go voluntarily. If it's a non-tribal casino it's positive EV for you if they decide to drag you away physically if you've done nothing to provoke them...tribal casinos are virtually immune from lawsuits except in their own tribal court so it's to your benefit to get the hell out of there when you see the **** about to start coming down on you but before it actually happens. I had a PC at Sam's Town in Shreveport just shove my chips out of the circle and say "you're done"...when I followed him and asked who he was and what he meant he just waved his badge at me and said I never want to see you in here again.

Usually though it's the first type...very polite and non confrontational...just a business decision...as it should be.

[moo321]

I think I know why you've never been backed off before...

[Chip Hoarder]

Wanna be the man called "nobody", (old cowboy flick). My name is nobody.

Actually, this is an even older reference - almost three millenia old, in fact. When the one-eyed pit boss asks you your name, you reply that your name is Nobody. After he backs you off, when his supervisors ask him if he backed off anyone today, he replies "I backed off Nobody" - and consequently they don't make any record of it.

[Aslan]

nope

Then you're right-- it is nothing worthy of attention. But just the same, card-counting behavior is patently obvious whether the spread is 1-20 or 1-6, the latter not immediately rising to a level of actionable threat to the casino's bottom line. If a card counter with a 1-6 spread plays the same casinos for longer than recommended sessions without camo, it is tantamount to informing the casino that he is a card counter with a weak game. If I were Surveillance Manager, I would instruct employees to check this person out if he is rated, checking to see how much he is winning or losing over time, and to put a watch on him for any change in his status. If it turned out that he was a consistent small time winner it's a judgment call whether to permit his continued play. One way to terminate his play is to wait until he has a large negative swing in variance and only then back him off, thereby recouping a part of past winnings. If he plays rated it is easy enough to keep an eye on him, making sure that he does not either (1) increase his max bet, or (2) cross whatever threshold has been determined unacceptable in a single session, say for example, $1,000.

OTOH, if the card counter plays unrated, it's a bit more complicated. He's a regular, so a picture of him and recognition is probably no problem. I'd tell my people to keep tabs on him, don't let him spread too high unless his overall game is weak, and carefully watch him if he hits the threshold, deciding whether to back him off immediately or wait until he hits a downswing in variance. The thing is, in the house's view, since this is a regular customer, he plays at our pleasure, and we can yank away the welcome mat at our discretion. The deck is stacked against him, so to speak.

Some surveillance crews will back off any skilled card counter playing any stakes at anytime, reasoning that it may be just a test of the casino's tolerance levels leading up to a large assault on the casino's bottom line at some future date. Some crews have discretion to size up an AP and allow continued play so long that it does not pose an immediate threat to the casino's bottom line (as determined by a threshold amount or spread amount).

In answer to your question, when a back off comes, it can come in all the ways described in these pages, however, I think that most large casinos would be firm and friendly, a lot depending on your own demeanor. You may get a gentle tap on the shoulder, and then a memorized and concise statement of your new status. One polite form of back off might go [spoken softly in your ear], "Sir. You play too well for us. You may play any other game in the casino, but I must inform you that you are no longer permitted to play blackjack in this casino [or any of its affiliated casinos]. Please color up your chips and leave the table now. Thank you." If you play unrated, the casino may also try to get you to reveal your identity under one pretext or another. Don't give it.

Don't bother to try to explain yourself. You're wasting your breath. Just quietly get up and leave. Normally, but not always, if you show respect to them, they will show respect to you. If I have not been observed for long, I try to have a quizzical look on my face hoping to plant a sense of doubt, but not because I have any hope of being reinstated, but because I don't want surveillance to become too confident in their judgments. I will likely be back some day, playing unrated.

YMMV, but these are my thoughts on it. My comments address only red and green min tables. I cannot speak for what happens in the case of black and above players, but since they pose a much greater threat to a casino's bottom line, I think you may get a different answer. Maybe a big player will weigh in.

[Monaco]

I am not a counter and I do play at a "tribal" casino. What are the chances I will ever be backed off just because of winning? I once had a day there with a $400 buy-in resulting in $2,500 winnings.

[bigplayer]

I am not a counter and I do play at a "tribal" casino. What are the chances I will ever be backed off just because of winning? I once had a day there with a $400 buy-in resulting in $2,500 winnings.

what are the chances...I'd say as close to zero as it gets. Casinos don't backoff people because they won a few thousand dollars. If you win $50,000 one night some casinos might decide you're up to something (even if they don't know what) and tell you to get lost but any backoff with a tiny + result like $2,500 takes a skills check...there are always exceptions so the chance of a backoff is non-zero but pretty close to zero.

[21forme]

am not a counter and I do play at a "tribal" casino. What are the chances I will ever be backed off just because of winning? I once had a day there with a $400 buy-in resulting in $2,500 winnings.

Smart casino management (often an oxymoron) wants to be sure a player is playing with an advantage before excluding them. They should know any gambler can win and over time will give back those winnings. Excluding such a player is incredibly stupid and poor business, but it happens all the time.

[moo321]

I am not a counter and I do play at a "tribal" casino. What are the chances I will ever be backed off just because of winning? I once had a day there with a $400 buy-in resulting in $2,500 winnings.

It's a remote possibility. I've seen ploppies get serious heat before.

[Aslan]

I am not a counter and I do play at a "tribal" casino. What are the chances I will ever be backed off just because of winning? I once had a day there with a $400 buy-in resulting in $2,500 winnings.

My friend who is not a counter showed me his 2012 win/loss from an AC casino showing winnings in excess of $44,000. I told him not to be surprised if he got half-shoed, but not to worry, (1) since he was doing nothing wrong, and (2) half-shoeing has no effect on a basic strategy game, other than it might interfere with his hunch that he is "due to win a hand," which is his modus operandi for raising his bet [aka voodoo]. In Vegas, it is possible he could get backed off, but more likely he will simply fall into that category of players who win through no fault of their own.

[Goatlife]

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[Aslan]

i figured i would share that story of ploppy getting backed off. In reality they thought we were a team and if they took the time to do a skills check they would of probably figured out i was playing at best a break even game (it was my second time in a casino counting)... some sweatshops are truly paroinoid

I can just picture him trying to explain that he is just a dumb, run of the mill gambler, and that his son, who knows how to count, was the only one playing a "smart" game.