New member introducing myself

**Talmadge** · 10-25-2016, 10:22 PM

Hi all, a little about myself. I took up an interest in blackjack a few years ago. I learnt basic strategy, high-low, illustrious 18, fab 4 and a few extra indices. I put together a bet spread and after a lot of practice i felt like i was ready to put this all together inside the casino for my first blackjack session. Unfortunately when i arrived all i could see was CSM's all over the main floor. That threw a spanner in the works after all of my practice. I found out that all the other casinos use CSM's in my country. The HL rooms still used shoes but the conditions were poor so i gave up on the idea of blackjack here. I have always kept an interest in blackjack even though i havent been able to play here. I have a couple of trips planned for next year where i will be able to count, so i have begun practicing again. I have a question regarding deck estimation. I have heard that most casinos in the US use cartamundi, paulson and aristocrat cards. Are these brands the same thickness or if not, is there much difference between them? I tried to keep this first post short but it turned into an essay!!! Thanks everyone

**jacktheblack** · 10-25-2016, 10:27 PM

Huh?
Deck estimation and the brand correlation?

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**Talmadge** · 10-25-2016, 10:52 PM

4 decks of paulson sitting in the discard tray could look completely different to 4 decks of aristocrat sitting in the discard tray if they are different thickness.

**greg16394** · 10-25-2016, 10:52 PM

Talmadge,
Where did you get your name from ?
It is not your real name for sure.
In other thread, they mentioned the 'Blackjack Story' by Glen Wiggy. I've never read it.

**Talmadge** · 10-25-2016, 10:57 PM

Yeah not my real name. Its from that blackjack story. Quite amusing but also very smart at the same time

**stringer** · 10-25-2016, 11:13 PM

cards fluff up and the pile becomes "higher" after a few hours of use.... if you are serious, buy/obtain about 40 decks of each. Then put the same amount of wear on them that your target casino(s) would inflict on them. Buy a micrometer and measure the before and after piles. This will give you an idea of the thickness of one deck when new, when used 8 hours, when used for an entire shift till changed. Next use rubber bands to make groupings of 1/2 deck or one deck or two decks, etc.... Buy a shoe and discard rack and felt lay-out (or even convert a table with aformentioned items to practice on) and practice deck estimation....
I have personally bought a professional table for mid two thousand dollars because I wanted to duplicate EXACT casino conditions for testing and implimentaion of various idea's and strategies....

**Stealth** · 10-26-2016, 04:24 AM

Card thickness can vary as much as one half to three quarters of a deck based on manufacturer, use, HUMIDITY, and perhaps others. Often times you can purchase used cards in the casino gift shop to take home and better prepare yourself. Las Vegas has the Gamblers Book Store with used cards from most strip casinos and at reasonable prices.

Practice by numbering a six deck shoe 1-312 (or keep them in order by suit in each deck) and practice cutting to +/- 3 cards. Helpful in shuffle tracking, card sequencing and just plain deck estimation.

RS · 10-27-2016, 06:04 AM

Has anyone (cough, Norm or DonS) done a study/simulation on the effect of swelled (or thick) cards vs new/thin cards for a player who doesn't make adjustments? I'd have to think, at least in most standard games (ie: not an 8 deck game dealt to 95% or something), the lack of adjustments would be near negligible.

Originally Posted by Stealth

Card thickness can vary as much as one half to three quarters of a deck based on manufacturer, use, HUMIDITY, and perhaps others.

1/2 to 3/4 of a deck difference? Are you comparing 1 deck to 1 deck, or 6 decks to 6 decks? I'd expect 6 to 6 being compared for up to 3/4 deck difference, then again, I certainly haven't looked at all the different types of cards under several different conditions, in detail.

EDIT: Interesting photos, Exoter. How much of a difference is there between the thickest deck vs the thinnest deck, in terms of # of cards? I don't have the greatest vision, but it looks like the Diamond Jo deck is about 5-6 cards thicker than the Golden Eagle deck.

**Exoter175** · 10-27-2016, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by RollingStoned

Has anyone (cough, Norm or DonS) done a study/simulation on the effect of swelled (or thick) cards vs new/thin cards for a player who doesn't make adjustments? I'd have to think, at least in most standard games (ie: not an 8 deck game dealt to 95% or something), the lack of adjustments would be near negligible.

1/2 to 3/4 of a deck difference? Are you comparing 1 deck to 1 deck, or 6 decks to 6 decks? I'd expect 6 to 6 being compared for up to 3/4 deck difference, then again, I certainly haven't looked at all the different types of cards under several different conditions, in detail.

EDIT: Interesting photos, Exoter. How much of a difference is there between the thickest deck vs the thinnest deck, in terms of # of cards? I don't have the greatest vision, but it looks like the Diamond Jo deck is about 5-6 cards thicker than the Golden Eagle deck.

Your eyesight is pretty close RS, I laid them out smallest to tallest, using the 4 common companies I had in my drawers ( I have just an absurd amount of them ) and though the Diamond Jo cards (Aristocrat) seem taller than the Prairie Meadows' cards (Bee), it was more of an optical illusion due to the lack of pattern on the back. Also, I'm fairly sure I nicked the top card, as when I went to put them back I noticed an ever so slight bend, which could have accentuated the illusion of being taller than the Bee's.

L->R you have Diamond Mountain Distributions, Gemaco, Aristocrat, and Bee. The difference between the last two was about half a card if anything, just ever so noticeably different when you eye them at level, from there, however, the step down was about 2-3 cards per deck all the way down to the Diamond Mountain's. All in all, I'd say probably a 6 card difference with perhaps a 3 card drop from Aristocrat (3rd L->R) to Gemaco (2nd L->R), and then another 2 card drop from Gemaco to DM (1st L->R). At seems like a night and day difference when you compare DM to Bee/Aristocrat, but when the two are side by side, the difference seems less amplified. Probably somewhere between 6 "large" cards and 8 "small cards" in terms of thickness I'd say.

If it'll really make a difference to anyone, I can pull out a micrometer and measure deck and card thicknesses.

Also, let it be known, each of those decks is 56 cards. I did not remove the two jokers, or the two "backing plate" cards that have a barcode on one card and an advert on the other.

**Talmadge** · 10-29-2016, 05:04 AM

Thanks everyone for all of the replies. The 2 brands that i have been practicing with are slightly different thickness. When the two 6 decks are side by side there is about a quarter deck difference. Re- marriedputter, after the first couple of times the full 6 decks were stacked in the discard tray my eyes did adjust for the difference between them so i'm hoping it will be just as easy in a casino setting.
Re- Stealth, one method i have been using for deck estimation is what you mentioned by numbering the full 6decks from 1-312 I was cutting 1, 2, 2.5 decks etc off the top then flipping the card over to check what number it was to check my accuracy. I was recently given a better idea which more simulates actual play by cutting off random sized chunks off the top then estimating how many cards are left standing. That way i'm not always looking at the full 6 decks first.
Re- Tthree, sinking the discard tray into the table is quite sneaky as is using different trays. Just goes to show what lengths they will go to.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 10-29-2016, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Talmadge

" ... a quarter deck difference."

So ... about a 4% difference.

What 'brand' of cards were they?

**Talmadge** · 10-31-2016, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

So ... about a 4% difference.

What 'brand' of cards were they?

I have been using paulson and bee cards. I checked again using brand new decks of each and the difference is just over a third of a deck. The paulson cards i was using previously were a little older and thicker with use

**Stealth** · 10-28-2016, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by RollingStoned

1/2 to 3/4 of a deck difference? Are you comparing 1 deck to 1 deck, or 6 decks to 6 decks? I'd expect 6 to 6 being compared for up to 3/4 deck difference, then again, I certainly haven't looked at all the different types of cards under several different conditions, in detail.

Sorry, this is comparing a six deck shoe of the two different casino cards.