How to keep counter off my table?

**seriousplayer** · 06-26-2014, 06:05 PM

There is a card counter that I see in the casino almost every time I am there. I am pretty sure that he uses the Hi-lo count. He was haunting my table once enough low cards came out of the shoe he wongin with minimum bet. It was an eight deck shoe game S17, DAS, LS 80% penetration. I notice he wongin when 9 low cards has already came out of the shoe when one deck has been played. I think he is using a rounding up TC. When the TC is 2.60 he round it up to 3 and take insurance at that count. I count using the TKO. According to studies done by Norm backcounter will reduce a counter advantage to about .15% assuming that person is only playing one hand. I should have left the table. In my opinion the counter that is haunting my table is not really a good counter because he is betting on the Lucky Ladies side bet in an eight deck game. I don't think that he realized that the Lucky Ladies side bet is a bankroll eater. Is it fair to say that he is not wonging in at a high enough count to affect my advantage? Because when 1 deck has been played with 9 low cards has came out of the shoe the TC for Hi-lo is 1.28 but for TKO the TC is .71. From the chart he will need at least to wong in at TC = 2 or greater to drop my advantage. Even so it would be better to keep him off my table. What can I do to keep him off my table? Should I play two hands when he is wonging in or should I just leave.

http://www.blackjackincolor.com/othereffects1.htm

**Ouchez** · 06-26-2014, 06:58 PM

It doesn't matter what his SKILLZ are, you can go to 2 or 3 spots, ask him to wait some, jack him around some, get on his nerves. Why should you leave? You can also just ignore him.

O

**BJGenius007** · 06-26-2014, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by seriousplayer

When the TC is 2.60 he round it up to 3 and take insurance at that count.
http://www.blackjackincolor.com/othereffects1.htm

Do you know 2.667 is the threshold mathematically? At 2.667, buying insurance or not buying has the same ev. From 2.668 up, players have positive ev buying insurance.

Maybe he thinks 2.60 is close enough to 2.667.

**seriousplayer** · 06-27-2014, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by BJGenius007

Do you know 2.667 is the threshold mathematically? At 2.667, buying insurance or not buying has the same ev. From 2.668 up, players have positive ev buying insurance.

Maybe he thinks 2.60 is close enough to 2.667.

For multiple decks the exact fractional index to take insurance is 2.9 but we just round up to TC of 3. I would not feel safe to take insurance at 2.667. If one deck is left probably but 3 decks has been played I would not feel confidence taking insurance. Oh by the way forgot to mention that TC of 2.60 is the true count for using TKO. The counter was using Hi-lo the TC for him might be higher than 2.60 because I am counting the 7s he is not. So this is probably why.

**Thirdbaseman** · 06-27-2014, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by seriousplayer

For multiple decks the exact fractional index to take insurance is 2.9 but we just round up to TC of 3. I would not feel safe to take insurance at 2.667. If one deck is left probably but 3 decks has been played I would not feel confidence taking insurance. Oh by the way forgot to mention that TC of 2.60 is the true count for using TKO. The counter was using Hi-lo the TC for him might be higher than 2.60 because I am counting the 7s he is not. So this is probably why.

According to Wong in PB page 53, using HiLo
insurance should be taken at 2.9 for 4 decks, 3.0 for 6 decks and 3.1 for 8 decks.
Since this was written 20 years ago, is it still accurate?

**seriousplayer** · 06-27-2014, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Thirdbaseman

According to Wong in PB page 53, using HiLo
insurance should be taken at 2.9 for 4 decks, 3.0 for 6 decks and 3.1 for 8 decks.
Since this was written 20 years ago, is it still accurate?

Why would it be okay to buy insurance when the TC reach 2.66 as BJgenius indicate when the insurance index is higher?

**White Guy** · 06-27-2014, 12:24 PM

There's many ways to best lucky ladies. It is a great side bet.

You should worry more about yourself rather than others at the table and spend your time doing something more productive. Something other than whining about and analyzing what someone else is doing. Unless he is betting your money. Who give a shit.

**seriousplayer** · 06-27-2014, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by White Guy

There's many ways to best lucky ladies. It is a great side bet.

You should worry more about yourself rather than others at the table and spend your time doing something more productive. Something other than whining about and analyzing what someone else is doing. Unless he is betting your money. Who give a shit.

Do you have a problem understanding my post??? It seem like you do. The reason why I post this because there is a possibility that this counter is reducing my advantage when is wonging my table that is the reason why I am analyzing him. I don't want to overlook the ways he can reduce my advantage. If I leave a good shoe I will be dealing with opportunities cost. I don't want that. You can't guaranteed that the counter wonging my table is not reducing my advantage can you???

From the website below:
http://www.blackjackincolor.com/othereffects1.htm

If not than I think you should shut up!!! You seem to have a rude attitude when I post questions. My question was how do I keep that counter off my table.

Another thing why I am analyzing his play is because there is a common belief that TKO or KO miss early betting opportunities. By seeing how a typical Hi-lo player plays I could understand it is not that much of an opportunity cost when hi-lo counts rise their bet at TC = 1.25 compare with TKO player is still betting minimum because the TC = .71. So sometime we are really not missing betting opportunities early in the shoe. It is because the TC does not warrant a bet rise.

**seriousplayer** · 06-27-2014, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by White Guy

There's many ways to best lucky ladies. It is a great side bet.

From "The Big Book of Blackjack" by Arnold Snyder on page 220-221 he states : "You will only win the Lucky Ladies bet about once every ten time that you place it. This means that if you are betting $25, you can expect to have many runs of Lucky Ladies bets where you lose hundreds of dollars before you hit a win. Sometimes you may win the bet a few times in succession, but there are no way to control the high fluctuations other than cutting back on your bet size. If your bankroll is very limited, then be careful of betting on any of the side bets that feature big payouts for small bets. Just because you get an edge in a game does not mean you should place the bet."

I agree with Arnold Snyder.

**moo321** · 06-27-2014, 01:25 PM

Simple solution: wong his table back.

Also, I was a bit worried it might have been me. I've been known to wong into another counter's shoe every once in awhile

**seriousplayer** · 06-27-2014, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by White Guy

Who give a shit.

Norm,

May I asked that White Guy be banned for using profanity? I think that is inappropriate behavioral and trust that you will be fair.

**BJGenius007** · 06-27-2014, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Thirdbaseman

According to Wong in PB page 53, using HiLo
insurance should be taken at 2.9 for 4 decks, 3.0 for 6 decks and 3.1 for 8 decks.
Since this was written 20 years ago, is it still accurate?

Wong is wrong.

**bjarg** · 06-28-2014, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by seriousplayer

Norm,

May I asked that White Guy be banned for using profanity? I think that is inappropriate behavioral and trust that you will be fair.

Why dont you shut the fuck up you moron?
You look like a 5 year old girl crying to your kindergarden teacher.
You are the one that should be banned for being such a crybaby.
Not to mention the fact that you are probably one of the biggest idiots around here.

Oh.. I just realized I used a profanity. Are you going to tell your mommy on me?