Best way to comp count?

[FalseCount]

What are the most effective methods of comp counting, taking into consideration bankroll preservation, high average bet, minimal risk of backoff, etc.?

When I have comp counted in the past I would frequently play off the top, wong out at -2 and below, 2x bet at true of 2+, full Hi Lo indices

If I have a 10k bank, and want maximum comps, what should my off the top bet be?
What strategies can I use to maximize my rating?

AND should I expect to be able to perform this undisturbed indefinitely throughout Vegas/Atlantic City/Biloxi, or might I actually be backed off for leaving the deeply negative shoes and spreading 1-2 on a game...

[Stealth]

You have a very high probability of losing your bankroll with this bet structure. A spread of 1X2 will not beat today's games. If you are truly wonging out a -2 then you are playing about half the hands or less and if the pit sees this he will likely adjust your comps.

Max Rubin's book, Comp City, quoted a formula for determine you comp level but they are very old and outdated. If I recall it was 2% of your action X 40%. So if you played one hour (100 rounds) @ $100 average bet ($10,000 action) times 2% then times 40% then your comp value would be $80. I believe these levels are less now and are mostly controlled by computer players card systems.

Optimal blackjack play for comps is a function of time at the table and average bet. Do all you can to influence these to your benefit.

If you are after table game comps then cross betting craps can work well if executed properly.

[bigplayer]

Hold your spread to 1-2 or 1-3 at most with some well timed bathroom breaks and phone calls in an otherwise play-all type of game. You're shooting for a 0.3 to 0.5% advantage (not counting cash rebates, comps, and coupons). That should keep you from getting backed off. Figure out how much the cash convertible extra goodies count in terms of EV (be very conservative) and figure out your win-rate and SCORE then size your bets accordingly to the desired risk of ruin. The first few times you play you probably make a few blunder type plays to get a skill rating of poor, this will enhance your comp value. After that you only need to rathole 2x to 3x your EV per hour. Play any coupons or match plays on a square game like Baccarat or Craps, not blackjack.

You don't need to beat the game if marketing offers make up the difference in the EV loss from playing polite. You're not playing against the game, you're playing against the casino's marketing department.

[greg16394]

Play any coupons or match plays on a square game like Baccarat or Craps, not blackjack.

Good post.
I know Baccarat.
Never played Craps. Is it 'Square' game ?

[Three]

It's rectangular.

[BigJer]

Play any coupons or match plays on a square game like Baccarat or Craps, not blackjack.

bp, what's up?

Why would you say to use match plays or coupons on Baccarat or Craps and not BJ? Do they comp more on those games even with the coupon?

It figures with the advantage that you should play it BJ.

TIA.

[Three]

It figures with the advantage that you should play it BJ.

Yes it does but how does waiting to get the advantage to use the coupon look? The idea of comp counting is to have a rating as poor a player as possible not give them more of a reason to rate you as a more skilled player.

[stopgambling]

Most match play coupon don't give 3:2 on bj ,how can it be better than baccarat?(plus the ease of using)

[BigJer]

Yes it does but how does waiting to get the advantage to use the coupon look? The idea of comp counting is to have a rating as poor a player as possible not give them more of a reason to rate you as a more skilled player.

T3. True but isn't it better to wait for an AP play?

Most match play coupon don't give 3:2 on bj ,how can it be better than baccarat?(plus the ease of using)

But isn't 6:5 still better than even money in Baccarat? Maybe I'm just in BJ mode.

[mcallister3200]

Player bet on bac or pass/no pass both have better return on a match play than BJ.

[Three]

T3. True but isn't it better to wait for an AP play?

A coupon is an AP play.

But isn't 6:5 still better than even money in Baccarat? Maybe I'm just in BJ mode.

No. You have to consider the expectation of the combined bet or coupon not the best that you can be paid for the bet.

[BigJer]

Player bet on bac or pass/no pass both have better return on a match play than BJ.

Huh. Didn't know that. One would think the opposite. Doesn't Pass/No Pass have a greater HE than even 6:5 SD BJ? Have to look that up.

A coupon is an AP play.

Well yeaaah.

No. You have to consider the expectation of the combined bet or coupon not the best that you can be paid for the bet.

I think I get it now. According to http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/basics/#toc-Pass I was confusing some things on HE and Roll. Is that it?

[Three]

It really all depends on the rules for the matchplay. In BJ there is a great variety of what the coupon can do. Some restrict even money to BJ pay for the coupon. Others require you to match the coupon with real money to split while not letting you double the coupon only the the monetary amount. Surrender often you lose half your bet but retain the coupon. Some places (Illegally) take half your bet and the coupon which since they state a nominal cash value (fraction of a cent) for the coupon is taking more then half your bet which of course is illegal. So most places will take half the bet and leave the coupon. Each rule has a different optimal strategy for playing hands and IF EVERYTHING IS PLAYED OPTIMALLY an expected value for the coupon.I have found a few places that allow you to bet it at SP21 and get all the bonus payouts. That has to beat using it at BJ and may be the best use of the coupon if you know how to play SP21 and they pay the bonuses on the coupon. I have never seen an expected value for the coupon in this case. I think they do it because almost everyone plays SP21 so poorly that it will in fact be the worst use of the coupon for them.