Efficiency-penetration

[ferenc11]

Hi Girls and Boys!

In the past one and half year i have been using KO FULL with a quite okay results. But i'd read it somewhere KO only performs well in deeply dealt down games, let's say over 70-75 percent of penetration.(Sorry guys i am not a mathematician- i am kind of like a pragmatic guy).

So my question is which counting system has better results mathematically in case of a poor (or poorer than 70-75%) penetration?


Thanks for any input!
You guys are great! I have learnt a lot from this site!

Good EV! All the best!

[ferenc11]

I am extremely sorry i forgot to mention that i mostly play 6 deck shoes...very rarely 8 decks. (No other games are available around my area unfortunately)

Once again thanks for any advice

[Bigdaddy]

The main weakness of KO is that the suggested betting ramps are based on a running count which may or may not align well with the actual advantage at that point.

For instance, in a 6-deck game, the KO betting ramp suggests increasing the bet by one unit after the running count has increased by 16. That's a good betting strategy if 3 decks have been played because the player would likely have a very slight advantage at that point. However, if only 2 decks have been played, you would be under betting the situation because your advantage is greater than a slight one (TC +2 at that point). But the bigger problem is that if 4 decks have been played you would be over betting because you have absolutely no advantage at that point. You would be raising your bet in a TC 0 situation.

The beauty of KO is that once the running count hits the pivot point (+24 in a 6-deck game), you are at TC of +4 no matter how many decks have been played and you should be at or near your top bet at that point. So in KO, you might be messing up your intermediate bets, but you won't be messing up your top bets and that's where the bigger money is anyway.

As to the comment that, "KO only performs well in deeply dealt down games", I would guess that the commentator is thinking that it is more likely that you will reach the pivot point in a deeply dealt game thus you will get accurate top betting opportunities; whereas in a shallow-dealt game, it is less likely that you will reach the pivot point and you will just be messing up your intermediate bets along the way.

This weakness is why I switched to true-counting KO ("TKO"). I couldn't stand the thought of increasing my bet in a disadvantage situation.

[stopgambling]

I thought KO was developed for exactly those 70-75 % pen game ( not good pen !), just average or mediocre Good pen games are 85% and up.

[ferenc11]

Bigdaddy

As to refer to Color of Blackjack by Daniel Dravot , He states in his book (It's in front of me) that "NO MORE DIVISIONS! MY SYSTEM ELIMINATES THIS FORMULA."
IF no divisions needed than why the TKO which is based on division?
I am completey confused now, i am sorry.
How should i apply the TKO in order to achieve better performance? Should i have to learn deck estimation?

[Norm]

CoB is not TKO. CoB is a trick to avoid the divisions in TKO. But, it still requires deck estimation.

[stopgambling]

there is nothing wrong with Ko unless you are playing some super deep pen( 90% +) games or have many constraints such as not able to spread high enough together with very crowded condition with good pen.

[Bigdaddy]

Bigdaddy

As to refer to Color of Blackjack by Daniel Dravot , He states in his book (It's in front of me) that "NO MORE DIVISIONS! MY SYSTEM ELIMINATES THIS FORMULA."
IF no divisions needed than why the TKO which is based on division?
I am completey confused now, i am sorry.
How should i apply the TKO in order to achieve better performance? Should i have to learn deck estimation?

I'll try to get some time later on and post a little more information on how I go about applying TKO without getting hamstrung by division calculations. Got to go play today...

[LoneWoLF]

6-8 deck shoes = HiLo / FELT / Halves

1-2 deck games = AOII w/ASC / Hi-OptII w/ASC / Halves

Full indices for all of them. They are not in any particular order. Pick one you like.

[lij45o6]

KO can be seen as a "bet too much too early, too little to late" system. Make no mistake, penetration is paramount to any count system as a deeply dealt games offers more info about the deck/shoe than anything else.

KO is a good count: I say good as in it is a good introdcution to counting to the common man who wishes to go pro later in life. I have been using it for a couple of years and it does wonders! However; make no mistake: You are sacrificing EV for simplicity as with any level one count.

I would recommend HO2/Zen with and ASC for 2D/DAS games with good pen! Zen or HO2 for shoe games though with no ASC as PE is not necessarily as powerful in a shoe games as it is in a 'pitched' game, if I recall correctly?

[ZeeBabar]

KO can be seen as a "bet too much too early, too little to late" system. Make no mistake, penetration is paramount to any count system as a deeply dealt games offers more info about the deck/shoe than anything else.

KO is a good count: I say good as in it is a good introdcution to counting to the common man who wishes to go pro later in life. I have been using it for a couple of years and it does wonders! However; make no mistake: You are sacrificing EV for simplicity as with any level one count.

I would recommend HO2/Zen with and ASC for 2D/DAS games with good pen! Zen or HO2 for shoe games though with no ASC as PE is not necessarily as powerful in a shoe games as it is in a 'pitched' game, if I recall correctly?

Here we go again, another count debate and arguments about sacrificing EV for simplicity.

[stopgambling]

Often what works in theory does not work in practice except under rare condition.As an example most people switched to automatic transmission even if manual transmission is easier to maintain and less likely to have a problem which also use less gas and have less component to break down , Oh also better for uphill. With all that benefit people still go for the ease of use with an automatic transmission car,go figure. One major factor that make these people change is the condition of today's road ,crowded .

[Phoebe]

CoB is not TKO. CoB is a trick to avoid the divisions in TKO. But, it still requires deck estimation.

By the way, do you think CoB worth the extra difficulty ?
I use it but I doubt.