Difficulties of playing full indexes when with 2-3 others at table..

**ZeeBabar** · 07-10-2016, 07:57 AM

I mostly play the I-18 plays ( minus the splitting of 10's against 5,6) but recently tried to learn and implement more indexes at DD games. The problem is that it's really difficult when playing with others, especially bigger bettors at table...

As an example, I have a $25 chip, others playing chunky Green or Black, the count is TC -5, I get a 13, dealer has a 5 and the call is to hit but if you do and as a result the dealer does not bust, the others at table lose, they are cursing at you.

Another example, I have a $25 chip, another is playing 2 Black chips, TC is -5, I have a 14, the dealer card is a 4. Play calls for me to hit. I hit and get a 10, bust, dealer has a 9 under his 4, gets a 7 and the ploppy loses $200.

Whatdo you do? Do you opt to not go with the indexes since it's a marginal play and it's more important to keep the ploppies at the table (less heat measures since ploppy is losing)?

**Frank Galvin** · 07-10-2016, 08:17 AM

zzb, since you are now entering into the twilight zone of ploppy psychology (not necessarily impugning yours), then you might ask yourself, what would you do if you had the chunky green and black bet, or the $200 bet out, and some schmuck who insists on sitting in the last seat hit his 14 against the dealer's stiff upcard (a 4).

Me, and most others here, we are going to trust the math (possibly influenced by combinatorial analysis for that hand). Most of us wouldn't bother trying to figure out how ploppies react. It is our hand, our cards, and most importantly, our money! Mind you, if a ploppy wanted to buy my hand to prevent a hit, EV.

**Ryemo** · 07-10-2016, 08:38 AM

Oh God, here we go again. This is only the hundredth time you've posted this exact same concern. How many "second opinions" do you need before you actually start following the advice?

Zee, just quit playing blackjack. Your skin is obviously not thick enough to deal with the harsh criticisms from stupid ploppies. And I already know what you're going to say: "but I don't want to piss off any regulars because it might result in heat from the pit, blah blah blah...." And my response to that will be; your game is too weak to attract any heat anyway, so I wouldn't be concerned about it.

**ZeeBabar** · 07-10-2016, 08:42 AM

Moses and Frank, two respected AP's with different approaches. Personality wise, I am more inclined to not upset others too much so often, I just stand on a 13 or 14 against a bust card regardless of count but am wondering if I have to get tougher, don't give a shit about table harmony or fear consequences.

**Three** · 07-12-2016, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by ZeeBabar

As an example, I have a $25 chip, others playing chunky Green or Black, the count is TC -5, I get a 13, dealer has a 5 and the call is to hit but if you do and as a result the dealer does not bust, the others at table lose, they are cursing at you.

Another example, I have a $25 chip, another is playing 2 Black chips, TC is -5, I have a 14, the dealer card is a 4. Play calls for me to hit. I hit and get a 10, bust, dealer has a 9 under his 4, gets a 7 and the ploppy loses $200.

Whatdo you do? Do you opt to not go with the indexes since it's a marginal play and it's more important to keep the ploppies at the table (less heat measures since ploppy is losing)?

Just tell them you hit because you wanted to win. You felt it was what you needed to do. Say you felt the total of the dealers hole-card and the next card was going to make the dealers hand. Say this is how you play so they should get used to it. Ask them why you should try to lose the hand so others are happy.

Originally Posted by ZeeBabar

I am more inclined to not upset others too much so often, I just stand on a 13 or 14 against a bust card regardless of count but am wondering if I have to get tougher, don't give a shit about table harmony or fear consequences.

Your only answer is to be a losing player or not play counts when you will be making such deviations from BS. What you don't get is blamers blame. No matter what happens they will blame others for their losses. It is you for not playing your hand right, it is the dealer for whatever stupid reason. I have had people be pissed that I surrendered 17vA which made them lose. I wasn't going to hit that 17 so it changed nothing concerning the cards but somehow in his mind I made him lose without changing what cards everyone got. A great way to help with this is point out every time you "save the table". On average it will help as much but some sessions you will either save the table almost every time or make the dealers hand almost every time. Tell them the only thing you can do is bring positive vibes to the table and it is really hard to win when some reacts negatively to the way others play and blame him that the cards went bad. If he had a positive attitude towards your plays and the table in general the dealer would have busted. You would be surprised how many of these idiots would buy into that.

It is best to say nothing and play right. If you talk to dealers they will tell you that those people will always blame something (usually the dealer) and they are not fun to have at their table. The dealers like it when you get them to change tables.

Another good one is to point at the ASM and say, do you think that thing is going to order the cards so you will win every round if you play the way everyone plays. You have to do strange things to keep a winning flow. You thought it was the time to through the machine off.

**stopgambling** · 07-10-2016, 09:08 AM

Use your surrounding to help win your battle (art of war)

**Freightman** · 07-10-2016, 09:23 AM

Zee
Let em bitch. This is not a team sport. I've met all kinds spouting ploppy logic - my response is generally, should the action lose - my money I'll play the way that I want. If the action wins of course I'm the hero and all is forgiven.

One notable exception
If a house valued ploppy with his 2x300 is next to me with my min $25 bet and I have 12 or 13 or 14 v dealer 2 or 3, I'll say something like - I don't give a shit if I hit or not - do you have a preference? Pit loves a happy table, and that action on my part has the pit giving me brownie points.

**Stealth** · 07-10-2016, 09:33 AM

My most recent response to a player asking me if I normally hit 13 V 3 was "only when I feel like it, hell I may hit anything just depends on how I feel, I am here to gamble". My intents was not to engage him but to put him (and dealer and pit) on notice that I like to gamble and may make "bad" plays.

This one decided he needed to find another table which also works for me. Besides, I decided long ago not to let someone else control how I feel.

**Freightman** · 07-10-2016, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Stealth

My most recent response to a player asking me if I normally hit 13 V 3 was "only when I feel like it, hell I may hit anything just depends on how I feel, I am here to gamble". My intents was not to engage him but to put him (and dealer and pit) on notice that I like to gamble and may make "bad" plays.

This one decided he needed to find another table which also works for me. Besides, I decided long ago not to let someone else control how I feel.

That approach helped me get rid of a yappy broad who was driving me nuts. She demanded her own table where she could control the Flow with her magnificent 9v7 doubles in negative counts.

**Clint** · 07-16-2016, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by ZeeBabar

I mostly play the I-18 plays ( minus the splitting of 10's against 5,6) but recently tried to learn and implement more indexes at DD games. The problem is that it's really difficult when playing with others, especially bigger bettors at table...

As an example, I have a $25 chip, others playing chunky Green or Black, the count is TC -5, I get a 13, dealer has a 5 and the call is to hit but if you do and as a result the dealer does not bust, the others at table lose, they are cursing at you.

Another example, I have a $25 chip, another is playing 2 Black chips, TC is -5, I have a 14, the dealer card is a 4. Play calls for me to hit. I hit and get a 10, bust, dealer has a 9 under his 4, gets a 7 and the ploppy loses $200.

Whatdo you do? Do you opt to not go with the indexes since it's a marginal play and it's more important to keep the ploppies at the table (less heat measures since ploppy is losing)?

A lot of people here are criticizing you and you don't seem concerned. Yet, at the table where money is involved you're obviously concerned about other people's opinion. Seems to me, you're not separating out what's a winning move (you surmise that pissing people off might result in a loss somehow) vs your personality problems. Forgive me, I'm relatively new to this particular forum––but this forum doesn't seem to be a place where you can get psychological assistance. I say that with some authority. I've been a licensed psychologist for nearly 30 years.

**Freightman** · 07-16-2016, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Clint

A lot of people here are criticizing you and you don't seem concerned. Yet, at the table where money is involved you're obviously concerned about other people's opinion. Seems to me, you're not separating out what's a winning move (you surmise that pissing people off might result in a loss somehow) vs your personality problems. Forgive me, I'm relatively new to this particular forum––but this forum doesn't seem to be a place where you can get psychological assistance. I say that with some authority. I've been a licensed psychologist for nearly 30 years.

Pretty good observation

Zee · 07-16-2016, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Clint

A lot of people here are criticizing you and you don't seem concerned. Yet, at the table where money is involved you're obviously concerned about other people's opinion. Seems to me, you're not separating out what's a winning move (you surmise that pissing people off might result in a loss somehow) vs your personality problems. Forgive me, I'm relatively new to this particular forum––but this forum doesn't seem to be a place where you can get psychological assistance. I say that with some authority. I've been a licensed psychologist for nearly 30 years.

I am a psychology and counseling major too. I am surprised at the simplistic view. People play in different settings and in different parts of the country. If you play in a locals casino and it's the only one within hours, if you play rated, there are nuances to playing BJ. If you play because you enjoy the environment, the locals and the pit folks are welcoming and kind, there is value there to be preserved. Thus, not hitting a 12 against a 4 even if the TC-1 count calls for a hit, I have a $25 chip, a local has $300 out, is not a big deal. I simply ask if I should hit and follow advice. It hardly makes a difference in the long run, I maintain a pleasant environment and feel welcomed.