Learning about side counts

[Villiam]

Switching to an ace neutral count obviously implies A=0, right?

And, does this also imply that the next logical thing to do is side count those aces?

How does a high or low number of aces tweak existing counts/betting?

[Boz]

Switching to an ace neutral count obviously implies A=0, right?

And, does this also imply that the next logical thing to do is side count those aces?

How does a high or low number of aces tweak existing counts/betting?

Yes, the Ace counts as Zero. You always side count the aces in an ace-neutral count for betting purposes; it's not the next step, it's part of the count. I'm not sure you're familiar with count tags. If you're not, make sure you are by looking at at an Ace-neutral count like Hi-opt 1 or Hi-opt 2. They are both balanced without the ace, and have low BC WITHOUT the ace.

The number of aces directly affects betting. Normally, they use a surplus/deficit system. I never did, I always used a balanced side count. So you if change to a traditional Ace-neutral count, I know Flash is an expert.

To add, just for your consideration and only in my opinion, an ace-reckoned level 2 like an RPC-variant is easier than an ace-neutral count.

[Three]

Switching to an ace neutral count obviously implies A=0, right?

And, does this also imply that the next logical thing to do is side count those aces?

How does a high or low number of aces tweak existing counts/betting?

Yes. Players that use an ace neutral count always side count aces. You bet by the RC converted to a TC. Before you covert to a TC you adjust the RC up if there are surplus aces and down if there are deficit aces. The adjustment varies by the system and is the same as the tag magnitude for the T's in the main count. So if you used a level 2 count (count tag for T is -2) you add 2 to the RC for each surplus ace. To determine surplus or deficit you estimate the number of quarter decks played. You expect to have seen that number of aces. If you have seen more the aces are in deficit by the difference and you subtract 2 times the difference between observed and expected aces. If the number is less than the deck estimate suggests there is a surplus of aces and you add the difference between the expected number of aces and the number of aces seen to the RC.

You probably want to do this before you consider the other option of a balanced ace side count. The benefit of a balanced ace side count is you don't need deck estimates for the side count. Typically you just add the 2 RC's for the main count and the side count and derive the TC for the sum. You can also make a stronger playing count by balancing the ace with cards that are not that useful in the playing count (main count). The balanced ace side count opens up a lot of creative uses of a 2 count system. They are not that useful for BJ but in BJ variants the creative use of balanced ace side counts can make for some really strong approaches and solve problems that come when counting the games. The comparatively linear nature of all aspects of BJ limit the gains from creative counts.

[vhalen]

I am currently using Hi-Lo (full indices) with ASC and planning to switch to Hi Opt II. Since I only play Pitch games, switching to Hi Opt II makes sense. I have just started practicing at home and it is taking more than a minute to count a deck. I can count the same 1 deck in 20 sec using Hi-Lo. So I guess it will take couple months to get used to the new count. Can anyone PM me the Hi Opt II full indices for DD (both H17 and S17)? Also, how do you count side 7s and how do you use it for playing decisions? I use abcdefgh for Aces.

[Villiam]

As much as there's a current T3 rag going on, I think that a lot of people may be losing sight of something there... He clearly benefits from special side bets that are easily beaten. I don't know which side bet game he plays, just that some are exceedingly high payout jackpots (5000 to 1 I believe I heard once?) for the bet and if he really is playing them at an advantage, it's going to figure into his reporting on his overall game and profitability.

My casinos have a couple side games: 21+3 and buffalo blackjack. Currently, I do not know how to beat these games with counting, as I am not mathematically sophisticated enough to do the math, run a sim, use excel, etc.. But any talk about counting for side games is also welcome here.

[Three]

A side count of nines in halves or any other count that includes the 9 as a high card is very strong when the 9 play as a low card. Without thinking about it much a hand of 12 or insurance to mind.

[stopgambling]

i still believe what ZMF say is true as 7 is great for 14 vs 10 , 8 is for 13 vs 10 and 6 is of course for 15 vs 10,9 all with a high bet out. 9 comes at the end of the list. Ace is no doubt a biggie for insurance and some doubling and splitting decision. Just using all these info for the decision over ride the normal index is plenty( quite enough for efficiency) .

[stopgambling]

I would rather concentrate my effort on bigger edge ,that's efficiency.

[LoneWoLF]

HiLo is all you need. Everyone else advocating side counts either is delusional or doesnt play enough hours to realize there's no difference. Unless its a highly dealt pitch game, stick with HiLo

[ZenMaster_Flash]

"HiLo is all you need. Everyone else advocating
side counts either is delusional or doesnt play enough hours to realize there's
no difference. Unless its a highly dealt pitch game, stick with HiLo"

I'll not spark a new flame war by arguing with an amateur,
but I will say is that the position espoused above is incorrect,
while the counter-position is mathematically provable.

[LoneWoLF]

I'll not spark a new flame war by arguing with an amateur,
but I will say is that the position espoused above is incorrect,
while the counter-position is mathematically provable.

Amateur? Ill make more than anyone on this forum by the time im done with this.

[Three]

Amateur? Ill make more than anyone on this forum by the time im done with this.

LoL. I didn't know you had a sense of humor.

[Tarzan]

HiLo is all you need. Everyone else advocating side counts either is delusional or doesnt play enough hours to realize there's no difference. Unless its a highly dealt pitch game, stick with HiLo

It's very much the opposite of what you are saying here. First off, "Hi-Lo is all you'll ever need" is a ridiculous statement and there is no one size fits all. To me that is like telling people that a horse and buggy is all they'll ever need so avoid getting a Ford Model T! I use a wide range of side counting techniques. Hi-Lo is all you'll ever need if you are playing low stakes and not many hours, there will be little or no difference. Higher stakes, enough hours, and there is a clear difference between Hi-Lo and more advanced counts. I've played enough hours to know there is a difference.