Learning about side counts

[Villiam]

Hey ya'll. I'm a Hi Lo player who plays predominately 6 decks that is looking to expand his counting knowledge.

I'm curious about side counts: Specifically ASC and 9SC... Keep in mind my naivete, can you guys either explain on your own how you run your side count in your head or on chips (or knuckles lines, Mr. Wolf) or direct me to good resources that I can access without shopping amazon for books? And more importantly how does your side count become useful for you in terms of info gained and bet sizing?

I know that we might argue about the worth of a given side count given my counting system and game preference. If you would like to suggest I learn something other than Hi Lo I'm very interested in your input.

And can I also just say thank you? To everyone here who has stuff to say, however hard to swallow, Thank YOU, it's opening up my game a ton.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

"I'm curious about side counts: Specifically ASC and 9SC"

Of course I certainly suggest that you learn a stronger count; Hi-Opt II being the best for you.

If you want to learn about Side-Counts you MUST read The Theory of Blackjack, 5th or 6th ed.

The chapter on "Multi-Parameter Counts" will teach you that Side-Counting 9's is a waste of time.

The Aces of course are crucial, and (in "pitch games) I side-count 7's for boosted Playing Efficiency.

The Aces improve P.E. for certain hand matchups, but are very important for accurate Bet Sizing.

[Three]

The gain from side counting is proportional to the PE of the main count. If you want to side count you should probably consider starting with a strong ace neutral playing count or at least an ace neutral playing count. Well most ace neutral playing counts are strong playing counts so I guess the original statement is redundant.

[Boz]

Hey ya'll. I'm a Hi Lo player who plays predominately 6 decks that is looking to expand his counting knowledge.

I'm curious about side counts: Specifically ASC and 9SC... Keep in mind my naivete, can you guys either explain on your own how you run your side count in your head or on chips (or knuckles lines, Mr. Wolf) or direct me to good resources that I can access without shopping amazon for books? And more importantly how does your side count become useful for you in terms of info gained and bet sizing?

I know that we might argue about the worth of a given side count given my counting system and game preference. If you would like to suggest I learn something other than Hi Lo I'm very interested in your input.

And can I also just say thank you? To everyone here who has stuff to say, however hard to swallow, Thank YOU, it's opening up my game a ton.

I'd strongly discourage side counting with Hi-Lo. It makes no sense and is a waste of time and energy. I'm sure it's happened, but I've never heard of anyone using mutliparameter strategies while using hi-lo. The better course is something along the lines of what Flash suggested.

Hi-Lo's main weakness is over-counting the deuce and under-counting the 7. I noticed this, and changed my count to the CR Count, which is variant of RPC, the same as FELT is a variant of RPC. One of these provides a small, but significant gain over hi-lo.

The other main place to improve your count is switching to an ace neutral count. That's not the same thing as side-counting aces in hi-lo.

[Villiam]

Switching to an ace neutral count obviously implies A=0, right?

And, does this also imply that the next logical thing to do is side count those aces?

How does a high or low number of aces tweak existing counts/betting?

[Boz]

Switching to an ace neutral count obviously implies A=0, right?

And, does this also imply that the next logical thing to do is side count those aces?

How does a high or low number of aces tweak existing counts/betting?

Yes, the Ace counts as Zero. You always side count the aces in an ace-neutral count for betting purposes; it's not the next step, it's part of the count. I'm not sure you're familiar with count tags. If you're not, make sure you are by looking at at an Ace-neutral count like Hi-opt 1 or Hi-opt 2. They are both balanced without the ace, and have low BC WITHOUT the ace.

The number of aces directly affects betting. Normally, they use a surplus/deficit system. I never did, I always used a balanced side count. So you if change to a traditional Ace-neutral count, I know Flash is an expert.

To add, just for your consideration and only in my opinion, an ace-reckoned level 2 like an RPC-variant is easier than an ace-neutral count.

[Three]

Switching to an ace neutral count obviously implies A=0, right?

And, does this also imply that the next logical thing to do is side count those aces?

How does a high or low number of aces tweak existing counts/betting?

Yes. Players that use an ace neutral count always side count aces. You bet by the RC converted to a TC. Before you covert to a TC you adjust the RC up if there are surplus aces and down if there are deficit aces. The adjustment varies by the system and is the same as the tag magnitude for the T's in the main count. So if you used a level 2 count (count tag for T is -2) you add 2 to the RC for each surplus ace. To determine surplus or deficit you estimate the number of quarter decks played. You expect to have seen that number of aces. If you have seen more the aces are in deficit by the difference and you subtract 2 times the difference between observed and expected aces. If the number is less than the deck estimate suggests there is a surplus of aces and you add the difference between the expected number of aces and the number of aces seen to the RC.

You probably want to do this before you consider the other option of a balanced ace side count. The benefit of a balanced ace side count is you don't need deck estimates for the side count. Typically you just add the 2 RC's for the main count and the side count and derive the TC for the sum. You can also make a stronger playing count by balancing the ace with cards that are not that useful in the playing count (main count). The balanced ace side count opens up a lot of creative uses of a 2 count system. They are not that useful for BJ but in BJ variants the creative use of balanced ace side counts can make for some really strong approaches and solve problems that come when counting the games. The comparatively linear nature of all aspects of BJ limit the gains from creative counts.

[vhalen]

I am currently using Hi-Lo (full indices) with ASC and planning to switch to Hi Opt II. Since I only play Pitch games, switching to Hi Opt II makes sense. I have just started practicing at home and it is taking more than a minute to count a deck. I can count the same 1 deck in 20 sec using Hi-Lo. So I guess it will take couple months to get used to the new count. Can anyone PM me the Hi Opt II full indices for DD (both H17 and S17)? Also, how do you count side 7s and how do you use it for playing decisions? I use abcdefgh for Aces.

[Freightman]

The chapter on "Multi-Parameter Counts" will teach you that Side-Counting 9's is a waste of time.

It depends on what you're looking for. As well, certain sude counts are more suited for specific systems.

[Villiam]

Of course I certainly suggest that you learn a stronger count; Hi-Opt II being the best for you.

If you want to learn about Side-Counts you MUST read The Theory of Blackjack, 5th or 6th ed.

The chapter on "Multi-Parameter Counts" will teach you that Side-Counting 9's is a waste of time.

The Aces of course are crucial, and (in "pitch games) I side-count 7's for boosted Playing Efficiency.

The Aces improve P.E. for certain hand matchups, but are very important for accurate Bet Sizing.

Book ordered.

[Villiam]

As much as there's a current T3 rag going on, I think that a lot of people may be losing sight of something there... He clearly benefits from special side bets that are easily beaten. I don't know which side bet game he plays, just that some are exceedingly high payout jackpots (5000 to 1 I believe I heard once?) for the bet and if he really is playing them at an advantage, it's going to figure into his reporting on his overall game and profitability.

My casinos have a couple side games: 21+3 and buffalo blackjack. Currently, I do not know how to beat these games with counting, as I am not mathematically sophisticated enough to do the math, run a sim, use excel, etc.. But any talk about counting for side games is also welcome here.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

" ... certain sude counts are more suited for specific systems."

"I beg to differ." NINES (9's) can be included in some Level 2
(and higher level) counts, e.g. A.O. II
but for side counting it is a very low priority.
As was clearly shown by Dr. Griffin, after the crucial Aces,

the ranks worth side-counting are, (in respective order),
the 7, the 8, and the 6. By the time that the player gets
to 9's "diminishing returns" sets in, rendering it a virtually
complete waste of effort.

[Freightman]

"I beg to differ." NINES (9's) can be included in some Level 2 (and higher level) counts, e.g. A.O. II

but for side counting it is a very low priority. As was clearly shown by Dr. Griffin, after the crucial Aces,

the ranks worth side-counting are, (in respective order), the 7, the 8, and the 6. By the time that the

player gets to 9's "diminishing returns" sets in, rendering it a virtually complete waste of effort.

And yet, I've done exceptionally with it, though the occurrence of its need is quite limited. It works well with my halves count for 1 specific situation, and is a slighter influence in a secondary situation.

Having said that, a recent thread has put the idea in my head to side count the insurance 10 count.. Wheather I can do it though remains to be seen.

I'm sure glad I reread that - almost referred to it as the insurance 19 count