What makes a true AP?

**Freightman** · 06-20-2016, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by moses

Insane desire to compete. Humility in victory and grace in defeat. Intelligent, street smart, and a little goofy all in one. Improve your game instead of complain. Like the game. Don't love it. Never let a losing mentality creep in. To give less than 100 percent is a sacrifice of the gift. Someone may beat me but they will have to bleed to do it.

Considered by many as the greatest round of boxing ever - Hearns V Hagler - seems to be a fitting response to your interesting post.

https://youtu.be/5s--I8BsgDU

**Bodarc** · 06-20-2016, 09:47 PM

I think there is a difference between a skilled player and an advantage player and we need to separate the two.

Stu Unger was the greatest gin rummy player in the world and many claim the best poker player of all time. When you can win the World Series of Poker so hopped up on cocaine you can barely function, you are very skillful. However, when you squander millions of dollars on horse racing, golf or any other bet someone wants to make, you are just a degenerate gambler and not an AP in my mind. Some people are just better at certain things but that doesn't make them an advantage player.

There are people who can walk out into a field and judge the weight of a herd of cattle, make you an offer, pull out the cash and buy your herd on the spot. He will then turn around and sell them instantly for a profit. Although these people are a type of advantage player, I consider them more as skillful traders rather than advantage players.

There are AP's in every walk of life, from business in general to the stock market, however, I classify advantage players in relation to games of chance.

So what is an advantage player?

He is hungry - An AP is constantly looking and scouting in search of a weakness. Whether it is a game, a dealer, a flaw in the equipment or any other weakness that may possibly give him an advantage over the house.

He is determined - Some people are more analytical than others, either through education or natural ability. An AP finds ways to overcome his shortcomings. Whether it is through his network of friends or hours and hours of study and practice, he will find a way to find and exploit a weakness.

He is patient - A true AP has the good sense to forego gambling. Just because he is in a casino doesn't mean he will squander his bankroll. No matter how long it takes, he will not place a bet without an advantage.

He is flexible - A true AP has an arsenal of weapons built up over time. He isn't limited to one game. If he walks into a casino, he surveys his surroundings, scouts what is available, spies a weakness and pulls from his arsenal and attacks it.

He is daring and crafty - Once he has found a weakness, he attacks it full strength. Within the limits of his bankroll, his spread, his ability to detect heat, he attacks in full force. He may milk a weakness over a period of time or he may go all out and let the cards fall where they may.

He is not a cheat - All of his methods are within the law. He is not a card marker, a chip topper or any other form of advantage play that is against the law.

In short, I compare an AP to a hunter with a quiver full of arrows. Whatever game jumps before him, he has an arrow for it. A hunter with only one arrow isn't much of a threat.

**Boz** · 06-20-2016, 11:18 PM

Are you saying Stu Unger was not an AP?

And what about an AP who only sometimes marks cards? I ask not because I mark cards, but because I think APing only encompasses legal plays. I don't think occasional cheating makes someone not an AP any more than any other crime. I think a true AP is anyone the casino would kick out for legally beating their games. Any tighter definitions are just different degrees of Grosjeanian (Hitleresque) classification.

The number of straight-card counters and poker players who can actually beat their game of choice, even with a completely inadequate spread and sickly bankroll, are so tiny compared to the amount of ploppies and wannabes--I don't see anything productive in dividing those few people into even smaller groups.

In my experience, patience and discipline seem to be the most important things. Intelligence is preferred, but is not required. Acting skills are a plus. People have surprised me and said I have nerves of steel, but I am just following my pre-planned strategy--which falls under discipline.

**Bodarc** · 06-20-2016, 11:21 PM

Stu Unger was a compulsive gambler.

**Boz** · 06-20-2016, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by Bodarc

Stu Unger was a compulsive gambler.

I agree. But he had an edge at poker, even against the world's best. So I'd call him an AP. Without his compulsion, it's quite possible he wouldn't have been a professional poker player, because he would have lacked the requisite desire. There's no reason a compulsive can't have discipline. But it's probably a good reason not to use mind-altering drugs.

**Bodarc** · 06-20-2016, 11:54 PM

Billy Baxter was the AP in that relationship.

**ZeeBabar** · 06-21-2016, 03:59 AM

So what is an advantage player?

He is hungry - An AP is constantly looking and scouting in search of a weakness. Whether it is a game, a dealer, a flaw in the equipment or any other weakness that may possibly give him an advantage over the house.

He is determined - Some people are more analytical than others, either through education or natural ability. An AP finds ways to overcome his shortcomings. Whether it is through his network of friends or hours and hours of study and practice, he will find a way to find and exploit a weakness.

He is patient - A true AP has the good sense to forego gambling. Just because he is in a casino doesn't mean he will squander his bankroll. No matter how long it takes, he will not place a bet without an advantage.

He is flexible - A true AP has an arsenal of weapons built up over time. He isn't limited to one game. If he walks into a casino, he surveys his surroundings, scouts what is available, spies a weakness and pulls from his arsenal and attacks it.

He is daring and crafty - Once he has found a weakness, he attacks it full strength. Within the limits of his bankroll, his spread, his ability to detect heat, he attacks in full force. He may milk a weakness over a period of time or he may go all out and let the cards fall where they may.

He is not a cheat - All of his methods are within the law. He is not a card marker, a chip topper or any other form of advantage play that is against the law.

In short, I compare an AP to a hunter with a quiver full of arrows. Whatever game jumps before him, he has an arrow for it. A hunter with only one arrow isn't much of a threat.

"

Or as a friend in another profession says, an AP is a highly intelligent person, totally irrational so totally dumb a person that he gives up college or a good profession where he could work in air conditioned splendor to go around in smoky, loser filled environments in search of small edges. The real AP is so damn dumb that instead of seeing from great full time AP's who quit or cut back on being an AP to become writers/authors, forum managers, software hawkers and moved on to other careers, he persists in a career that hurts relationships and family. An AO is someone who cannot find friends, so he is on AP forums finding other addicts to keep the rush going.

**BoSox** · 06-21-2016, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by ZeeBabar

Or as a friend in another profession says, an AP is a highly intelligent person, totally irrational so totally dumb a person that he gives up college or a good profession where he could work in air conditioned splendor to go around in smoky, loser filled environments in search of small edges. The real AP is so damn dumb that instead of seeing from great full time AP's who quit or cut back on being an AP to become writers/authors, forum managers, software hawkers and moved on to other careers, he persists in a career that hurts relationships and family. An AO is someone who cannot find friends, so he is on AP forums finding other addicts to keep the rush going.

That is not a quote from one of your friends, that is ZeeBabar's own true feelings in a nutshell. The same type expressions of yours have often appeared on green chip when debates were not going your way.

**ZeeBabar** · 06-21-2016, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by BoSox

That is not a quote from one of your friends, that is ZeeBabar's own true feelings in a nutshell. The same type expressions of yours have often appeared on green chip when debates were not going your way.

Whar debate is not going my way? I don't know you and you have never met me so what is this about?

There are so many folks who were once AP's and now writing books and pursuing other professions that I wonder if pursuing a full time AP career is worth it in these days of worse rules. I mean, if the potential is there, then why the hell are these former pros not at the tables, instead opting to write books or teach or attempt another profession?

**BoSox** · 06-21-2016, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by ZeeBabar

Whar debate is not going my way? I don't know you and you have never met me so what is this about?

I'll tell what this is all about: Being able to speak your true feelings, while not poorly attempting to say a friend told you this. You can not only learn plenty about advantage play, from people like Zen Master Flash, Freightman , Bos, and Moses but you can also learn that these people also stand up and defend their convictions, they also do not shy away from a controversial subjects. You and I both could learn plenty from them.

**Norm** · 06-21-2016, 06:54 AM

Z has stood up for his own feelings many times -- and taken grief because of it on two boards. Much of it deserved. But, I wouldn't say hie is shy.

**Freightman** · 06-21-2016, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by Norm

Z has stood up for his own feelings many times -- and taken grief because of it on two boards. Much of it deserved. But, I wouldn't say hie is shy.

Good point Norm. Granted, I am no longer a member at BJ21 - I would also add that this board is an absolute love tap compared to the shit storm he took over there, though I can't comment on present day.

That being said, as aggravating and stubborn as Zee can be - 2 points. I think he has a great sense of humor. More importantly, he STANDS up for himself - unlike most people facing the fire.

**Boz** · 06-21-2016, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by BoSox

I'll tell what this is all about: Being able to speak your true feelings, while not poorly attempting to say a friend told you this. You can not only learn plenty about advantage play, from people like Zen Master Flash, Freightman , Bos, and Moses but you can also learn that these people also stand up and defend their convictions, they also do not shy away from a controversial subjects. You and I both could learn plenty from them.

Bosox is back! I missed you brotha!