Assistance required

**Koz84** · 05-21-2016, 04:12 PM

Hello all,

It's your resident down-under player here. I'm writing today as I am facing a Commission hearing to appeal my local casino's decision to exclude me for "breach of gaming integrity" i.e card counting. More specifically, alleged breaches of a restriction (betting more than min) stemming back to 2012. The exclusion prevents me from even walking anywhere near this casino. The Commission is holding an inquiry and essentially will be the forum to state why I should not be excluded. I'm hoping the collective minds here can come up with "angles" I should use. So far I have taken the disproportionality argument as my main focus. I am also heavily drawing upon their use of the word 'integrity' and illustrating I was in no way dishonest as the word implies. I also intend to turn the tables on the casino and point to their flagrant disregard for the game in changing the rules to the point it is today, where it could be barely considered BJ with a ridiculous house edge. I want to point to the NJ decision here in the States also, does anyone have any key points of that decision? What else would you be arguing in my shoes? Appreciate the help, guys!

**davethebuilder** · 05-21-2016, 07:09 PM

The Victorian Commission for Gambling and Liquor Regulation has a legally binding agreement with Crown Casino that controls their operating practices(Casino Control Act, 1991). The casino is split up into two main areas – the main floor and the VIP rooms.

Main floor – the only way you will be legally prevented from entering this area is if you break the law and/or have an Exclusion Order in place or you choose to be self excluded(problem gamblers). This assumes that you are appropriately dressed, sober, at least 18 years of age, etc.

VIP areas –these areas can be accessed by VIP members, as a guest of a VIP or via a Manager’s day pass. They have the right to exclude you at any time and for any reason, however, this is not always enforced as they would prefer to allow you to play and lose at least part of your bankroll. If you are have been monitored and assessed to be an advantage player then generally their first response is to place betting restrictions on you which you must adhere to. If you repeatedly violate those restrictions over a period of time then what happens next depends on the circumstances.

For your situation to have reached this point there must be some written correspondence from the casino which has not been included in your post. Once restricted you do have the right to ask a Commission Inspector to review your case. Also, if they are seeking to enforce an Exclusion Order in the form that you have stated then then they will need to produce the evidence at the hearing including any Commission or Police reports.

Atlantic City, New Jersey is a different jurisdiction in a different country and their past decisions are unlikely to have an impact here. Crown Casino is a state sanctioned monopoly and any rule changes must be agreed to by the Commission prior to being offered to the public so it is unlikely that your argument of high house edges will influence their decision. Also, the cancellation of comps will have no bearing on this matter.

There are several legal firms in Melbourne that handle gaming issues which you should consider having a talk to. The main point is to apologise for any violation, assure them that there will be no repeat and then try to convince them that you were not cheating, just using your mind but their decision will be strongly based on the available evidence and their interpretation of the law. If the case does not go your way you can still ask for a variation to allow you in the building to play other games eg. poker and also to patronise the restaurants, etc. In addition, you can ask for a review of the time limit to be placed on the Order if you can convince them that you are no threat to the public. One final point to remember is just make sure you understand the difference between the casino and the casino complex. The former is the building that the casino is housed in and the latter includes the land around the building that is owned by Crown. This is important because you need to understand the boundaries of any Exclusion Order; if they catch you violating it then the next step is a conviction and a fine. Good luck.

**Boz** · 05-22-2016, 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by Koz84

Hello all,

It's your resident down-under player here. I'm writing today as I am facing a Commission hearing to appeal my local casino's decision to exclude me for "breach of gaming integrity" i.e card counting. More specifically, alleged breaches of a restriction (betting more than min) stemming back to 2012. The exclusion prevents me from even walking anywhere near this casino. The Commission is holding an inquiry and essentially will be the forum to state why I should not be excluded. I'm hoping the collective minds here can come up with "angles" I should use. So far I have taken the disproportionality argument as my main focus. I am also heavily drawing upon their use of the word 'integrity' and illustrating I was in no way dishonest as the word implies. I also intend to turn the tables on the casino and point to their flagrant disregard for the game in changing the rules to the point it is today, where it could be barely considered BJ with a ridiculous house edge. I want to point to the NJ decision here in the States also, does anyone have any key points of that decision? What else would you be arguing in my shoes? Appreciate the help, guys!

Integrity doesn't imply you were dishonest. It implies you are not a profitable customer. You are not going to get very far if you decide to misinterpret everything they've said. The burden is not on them, it's on you.

New Jersey gaming law has no application in Australia. It has no application in most of the U.S. All the law actually says is (which is not statute) that the Gaming Control Board has the authority to allow or ban APs, not the casino. If this were a nationwide law, it might be convincing. A state law that is not applied across the country will have no bearing on a way a foreign country makes its rules. I'd suggest you not go this route.

There's no way they are going to let you come back and count cards with impunity. You should not have violated their bet restrictions and instead played somewhere else. Your only real hope is to sincerely apologize for violating bet restrictions and to assert the lifetime ban is too harsh. That you could understand being banned from blackjack and blackjack variants for life, but not the entire casino for more than 6 months. You could throw in that there's no law against being a smart gambler, and that you may wish to play poker against other players, a game that the casino would profit from regardless of how you lawfully play.

Just my opinion. But if you start attacking their way of making a profit, you're not going to get far. Good luck.

**Koz84** · 05-22-2016, 04:42 AM

I realise that NJ law has no bearing on Australia, however, I feel the decision is quite persuasive and given there lacks any cases here dealing with the issue, sometimes obscure case law is all you can rely upon. I am dealing with the Commission, not the casino itself, so I'm not sure if being overly apologetic is necessary, given my main argument will be one of proportionality and that there was no breach of integrity whatsever. I have to convince the Commission I should be allowed to enter the casino. Dave, perhaps a variation could be something I ask for, as it stands, I'm facing a 5 year TOTAL exclusion from the entire complex simply for using my mind.

**davethebuilder** · 05-22-2016, 05:40 AM

Any casino is going to move to protect their business interests but a 5 year ban is quite harsh if all you have been doing is counting cards. Were you playing at high stakes or as part of a team? If so then they will definitely want to break that up but it still comes down to the rules, the law and the evidence. I really feel that you should seek professional advice.

With regard to the precedent that you are referring to it sounds similar to Ken Uston’s case. I understand he won a lawsuit in the New Jersey courts that prevented casinos banning card counters and the casinos reacted by increasing the number of decks used and changing the rule sets in their favour. From what I have read there are still mixed feelings about the case but this is a separate legal issue from your upcoming hearing because there are no such laws currently in place here.

**Boz** · 05-22-2016, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Koz84

I realise that NJ law has no bearing on Australia, however, I feel the decision is quite persuasive and given there lacks any cases here dealing with the issue, sometimes obscure case law is all you can rely upon. I am dealing with the Commission, not the casino itself, so I'm not sure if being overly apologetic is necessary, given my main argument will be one of proportionality and that there was no breach of integrity whatsever. I have to convince the Commission I should be allowed to enter the casino. Dave, perhaps a variation could be something I ask for, as it stands, I'm facing a 5 year TOTAL exclusion from the entire complex simply for using my mind.

I don't know why you think NJ law sounds persuasive, but it isn't. I"m sure they already heard of it. If you treat them like morons who are green to the casino industry, it can only hurt your case.

You didn't get banned for 'using your mind.' And they certainly wouldn't be moved by your characterization of the innocence of card counting. You got banned for violating the betting restriction placed on you to prevent your card counting from being a threat. They can't trust you. So rather than bother with you, they threw you out. Seemed pretty clear from your post. If you fail to acknowledge responsibility for what actually got you bounced, again, will only hurt you. You need to apologize for that, admit your poor judgment, and promise to stay away from blackjack.

It seems like you want to get back in to count cards. And want to argue their rules are unfair and should be changed on account of you. It will never happen. If you waste their time with that, they'll be on the look-out for you as soon as your 5 years expire so they can bounce again as soon as you show up.

**LTBorWELL** · 05-23-2016, 02:25 AM

Hi Koz84

Is this commission inquiry an open affair? Can the public come and watch? I would be very interested in doing so.

low

**Koz84** · 05-23-2016, 04:43 AM

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. It may be. I was playing in a small team for what I'd characterise as mid-high stakes on the main floor. Dave, drawing on your statement, the ONLY people that have faced exclusion have been criminals, associates of criminals and cheaters. That is why I'm slightly pissed, for want of a better word.

**Boz** · 05-23-2016, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by Koz84

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. It may be. I was playing in a small team for what I'd characterise as mid-high stakes on the main floor. Dave, drawing on your statement, the ONLY people that have faced exclusion have been criminals, associates of criminals and cheaters. That is why I'm slightly pissed, for want of a better word.

Now you're part of a high-stakes team? And they normally only exclude criminals? Well, cheating/crime occurs more frequently than a confirmation of a high stakes team hitting their casino, so that's probably why a whole lot of teams aren't excluded. I don't think you're looking for sensible advice, you seem to be looking for people to cheer for you or give you a silver bullet. You were made. They aren't going to invite you back in to buck their system. Good luck.

**davethebuilder** · 05-23-2016, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by Koz84

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. It may be. I was playing in a small team for what I'd characterise as mid-high stakes on the main floor. Dave, drawing on your statement, the ONLY people that have faced exclusion have been criminals, associates of criminals and cheaters. That is why I'm slightly pissed, for want of a better word.

Now I think we are getting closer to understanding the reasons behind the Casino’s actions against you. Essentially, your Melbourne gig is done. You have not provided copies of any paperwork but I will try and help anyway, however, I still suggest you seek professional advice.

Both the Commission and the Casino can issue Exclusion Orders which may be verbal or written. If it is a verbal Order it lapses after 14 days from the date you were advised of the Order and if it is written it will state the duration; in your case 5 years. You should be aware that they can just as easily revoke it if they choose to do so but if that is not going to happen you will need to appeal to the Commission for a review within 28 days from the date of the Order and I understand that is where you are at now. The Commission has the authority to uphold, overturn or vary the Order or issue a new one. They will consider your reasons which must be in writing but you need to make an honest, sound and convincing argument because they have to justify their actions too.

I understand that in 2012 you were restricted to one box as well as being flat betted to the table minimum. So at any time between then and now did you violate that restriction as part of your team efforts thereby allowing the casino to use this as an excuse to ban you? Please remember the Casino will almost certainly have video surveillance of you at the tables and may use it as justification for their actions.

Let’s move onto the 5 year Exclusion Order from the Casino complex. In my opinion this is where the Casino may have made an error of judgement assuming that you have no criminal record. It is my understanding that exclusions from the complex are reserved for criminals that pose a danger to the public and they are excluded as a result of an application from the Police. Others who are not a danger to the public may be excluded from the casino only and I have explained the difference in the meaning of these two terms in a previous post.

So I think you may have a strong case for a review as far as the extent of the ban and probably the time frame as well but you must realise that the Casino will never allow you back in to continue what you were doing.

**Boz** · 05-23-2016, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by davethebuilder

Now I think we are getting closer to understanding the reasons behind the Casino’s actions against you. Essentially, your Melbourne gig is done. You have not provided copies of any paperwork but I will try and help anyway, however, I still suggest you seek professional advice.

Both the Commission and the Casino can issue Exclusion Orders which may be verbal or written. If it is a verbal Order it lapses after 14 days from the date you were advised of the Order and if it is written it will state the duration; in your case 5 years. You should be aware that they can just as easily revoke it if they choose to do so but if that is not going to happen you will need to appeal to the Commission for a review within 28 days from the date of the Order and I understand that is where you are at now. The Commission has the authority to uphold, overturn or vary the Order or issue a new one. They will consider your reasons which must be in writing but you need to make an honest, sound and convincing argument because they have to justify their actions too.

I understand that in 2012 you were restricted to one box as well as being flat betted to the table minimum. So at any time between then and now did you violate that restriction as part of your team efforts thereby allowing the casino to use this as an excuse to ban you? Please remember the Casino will almost certainly have video surveillance of you at the tables and may use it as justification for their actions.

Let’s move onto the 5 year Exclusion Order from the Casino complex. In my opinion this is where the Casino may have made an error of judgement assuming that you have no criminal record. It is my understanding that exclusions from the complex are reserved for criminals that pose a danger to the public and they are excluded as a result of an application from the Police. Others who are not a danger to the public may be excluded from the casino only and I have explained the difference in the meaning of these two terms in a previous post.

So I think you may have a strong case for a review as far as the extent of the ban and probably the time frame as well but you must realise that the Casino will never allow you back in to continue what you were doing.

"A licensee is able to refuse entry to any person as long as the reason is not discriminatory. The licensee also has the right to ask any person to leave their premises. No special laws or forms are required to do this." Victorian Gaming and Liquor, referring to Crown licensed property.

As I said, he could definitely ask to be let onto the premises, but they won't let him AP their games. I don't know why I'm still helping, no one wants to hear facts that contradict a fairy tale ending.

**Koz84** · 05-23-2016, 02:32 PM

Hi Boz, that's certainly something I'd seek. I think a variation of the exclusion order would be warranted.

**BPrenewable** · 05-23-2016, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Boz

"A licensee is able to refuse entry to any person as long as the reason is not discriminatory. The licensee also has the right to ask any person to leave their premises. No special laws or forms are required to do this." Victorian Gaming and Liquor, referring to Crown licensed property.

Can you provide a link to the quote please.
The only place I can find it under is under the LIQUOR section of Victorian Commission for Gaming and Liquor. "A licensee" is not casino, but an alcohol selling license.

Home Liquor Standard licence obligations Barring problem customers

Under changes to the Liquor Control Reform Act 1998 (the Act), from 1 August 2011, licensees need to be aware of their responsibilities not to allow drunk, violent or quarrelsome persons to enter or remain on their licensed premises. To assist licensees, there are three options available to licensees when it comes to barring/banning troublesome patrons.