Hand shuffle vs. Automatic shuffler. New cards vs. Old cards.

[fjrider]

I have seen the most advanced ASM doing crazy things. The older model has only one liner screen. The newest model has 640x480 VGA graphic screen. If you sit at the first base or walk around, you can see what kind of ASM the table is equipped. I notice the latest model ASM with the graphic screen has the following ability:

1) The screen turned bloody red when one card is missing. It did so to alert the pit boss to change the cards.

2) Clumping the shoe. There was an incident that makes me a believer. Once there were a few AP at the table, so pit boss came to change setting of ASM then ASM generated some impossible shoes in a roll. Every shoe has the following patterns: 20 consecutive small cards without a face card (mostly 2, 3, 4, with rarely 5 and without any 6). Then 10, 6, 10, 6, 10, 6, 10, 6, 10, 6, etc. Then more than 12 eight's in 15 consecutive cards. Then another good mixture of fives and faces only. Then clumps of nines. Then repeat all the patterns again.

If I chose hand-shuffled or older one-liner ASM, even at the same casino, I seldom encountered such crazy shoes. My conclusion: avoid the latest ASM as possible as you can.

Leaning to belief. One thing I see over and over at a local(tribal) store playing 6 deck is a group of aces followed by a group of small cards, 2-5. 5(or more) aces in a row followed by all small cards. If a few are at a table, everyone gets an ace and small card maybe one gets double aces, then everyone(including dealer) gets a small card. Leads to a lot of doubles and splits with no 10's joining in. If the dealer gets an ace or even two it doesn't matter, they just hit until the hand is good against a bunch of lousy doubles. I've had 5 aces in a row playing heads up, and seen others get it as well. 4 splits, all losses. Once in a very long while I would not comment, but it happens over and over. The affect is to raise the house win percentage and lowers the number of BJ's. And the fewer players, the more sure it is for the dealer.
How many times do you get 5 aces in a row? Followed by all small? It should be extremely rare.

The kind of clumping BJGenius talks about would be very hard to prove, and maybe even to detect in a test. But while still on the fence, I'm close to falling to one side of it, and I do believe it can be set up so that dealer benefits in various ways other than the one I mentioned.

PS, you'll notice the count would stay the same through that ace/small clump.

[BJGenius007]

Leaning to belief. One thing I see over and over at a local(tribal) store playing 6 deck is a group of aces followed by a group of small cards, 2-5. 5(or more) aces in a row followed by all small cards. If a few are at a table, everyone gets an ace and small card maybe one gets double aces, then everyone(including dealer) gets a small card. Leads to a lot of doubles and splits with no 10's joining in. If the dealer gets an ace or even two it doesn't matter, they just hit until the hand is good against a bunch of lousy doubles. I've had 5 aces in a row playing heads up, and seen others get it as well. 4 splits, all losses. Once in a very long while I would not comment, but it happens over and over. The affect is to raise the house win percentage and lowers the number of BJ's. And the fewer players, the more sure it is for the dealer.
How many times do you get 5 aces in a row? Followed by all small? It should be extremely rare.

The kind of clumping BJGenius talks about would be very hard to prove, and maybe even to detect in a test. But while still on the fence, I'm close to falling to one side of it, and I do believe it can be set up so that dealer benefits in various ways other than the one I mentioned.

PS, you'll notice the count would stay the same through that ace/small clump.

1. It takes a bold pit boss to make me a believer. I always suspect some casinos clump the shoe. But I was only 66% sure. It changed one day when I played with two other AP. The pit boss is a cocky type who will do anything to win based on observation. When I joined the table, my tablemates warned me they were losing big. Short after I could see why. The pit boss has turned on to max setting. He must have to, to combat the two AP. I saw 30 consecutive small cards (most 2, 3, 4 and some rare 5). Then pattern like 10 6 10 6 10 6 10 6 10 6 10 6 10 6 10 6 10 6 10 6 10 6 10 6, followed by a strings of aces with rare small card and no faces. Then clumps of 8 and the like. And the pit boss was smiling at us, like he knows something we don't know even some of us had 20 to 1 and 40 to 1 spread. Soon after, the pit boss is no longer with the casino. I believe he violated some protocol and put the casino in danger. Besides the incident, it is always a subtle manipulation. I can see shoes are more likely clumped when AP and whale are at table, but one can blame it on variance.

2. I call the new ASM model bloody red ASM because it not only can signal using a red light (LED) but turns the entire 4 inch VGA screen bloody red. I also remember when it was just deployed, a female dealer complained to me that the cards (6 deck) for the new machine are much heavier than old cards to hold and lift in one hand. I said it looks the same. She said it is much heavier because of built-in chip inside each card, so the machine could find a missing card instantly.

[Boz]

1) NONSENSE ploppy tripe. Here's a question, do you have any evidence that goes beyond your off the wall conjecture? Here's a better question...why did you repeatedly play at a table or casino that you were 100% sure was cheating you out of money? So you could complain about it?

2) Are you sure those chips aren't alien implants?

I lost 13 hands in a row on a hand-shuffled game once, playing alone at the table--no pushes. I lost the next four hands, with two pushes mixed in--true story. Obviously, they were using an ASM with an invisibility cloak, pre-programmed for me to lose. And the pit boss who wasn't there when I went in the next time...the only explanation for his absence was he was fired for acquiring illegal invisibility technology. Is my insane explanation for a true story less rational than yours?

[moses]

I lost 13 hands in a row on a hand-shuffled game once, playing alone at the table--no pushes. I lost the next four hands, with two pushes mixed in--true story. Obviously, they were using an ASM with an invisibility cloak, pre-programmed for me to lose. And the pit boss who wasn't there when I went in the next time...the only explanation for his absence was he was fired for acquiring illegal invisibility technology. Is my insane explanation for a true story less rational than yours?

Shoe or pitch?

[Boz]

Pitch. over the course of two horrendous slips. The session ended as a win. It gets irritating when you destroy a personal record for worst cards ever in 10 minutes, but it's all part of the game. Count and bet, and you end up on top, as I did in the same session. Blaming phantoms is not AP.

[moses]

Pitch. over the course of two horrendous slips. The session ended as a win. It gets irritating when you destroy a personal record for worst cards ever in 10 minutes, but it's all part of the game. Count and bet, and you end up on top, as I did in the same session. Blaming phantoms is not AP.

You could've been getting dealt seconds. Very hard to detect, but 32 in a row was my record. It was decades ago. I remember thinking this basic strategy chart sucks. There are a few dealers that are not phantoms. Typically, they surface in smaller casinos and/or on busy nights.

[Boz]

LOL, no Moses, I wasn't dealt seconds. WTF (that's a why, not a what) do I keep reading stuff like this from supposed APs? It's variance. This dealer probably didn't even know how to play blackjack. I spread 25-1 against her. I won against her. Why would a dealer risk prison to entertain him/herself watching a complete stranger lose? It's not impossible, but I think Norm's forum policy aptly applies. No accusations without proof...because it's absurd in almost any situation. I wasn't playing in an ilegal casino, I was playing in Vegas.

Decades ago, 32 hands WITHOUT a push? That does seem suspicious in a time when the mob ruled and not mega-conglomerates, so maybe you were cheated. 31 hands seems equally suspicious, so I wonder why you would keep playing.

[moses]

LOL, no Moses, I wasn't dealt seconds. WTF (that's a why, not a what) do I keep reading stuff like this from supposed APs? It's variance. This dealer probably didn't even know how to play blackjack. I spread 25-1 against her. I won against her. Why would a dealer risk prison to entertain him/herself watching a complete stranger lose? It's not impossible, but I think Norm's forum policy aptly applies. No accusations without proof...because it's absurd in almost any situation. I wasn't playing in an ilegal casino, I was playing in Vegas.

Decades ago, 32 hands WITHOUT a push? That does seem suspicious in a time when the mob ruled and not mega-conglomerates, so maybe you were cheated. 31 hands seems equally suspicious, so I wonder why you would keep playing.

Yes. I remember buying in for $500 and playing $10 a hand. There might have been a push or two. But it quickly evaporated to $180 without a win. The pit guy offered me a room when I cashed out so quickly with a stunned look on my face.

There are 3 that I know are very good at dealing 2nds and 1 I suspect. Typically, they work for the casino primarily during busy times to make APs go away. Recently, I got a 20 vs the suspects A. Now, I happen to know 13 were already played. So my 2 made 15. Negative RC was double digits. But lo and behold there was that last 10 under the A. An insurance decision needed to be made far more often than normal (like 3 times in a single negative deck). He had it everytime. It took 5 losing sessions in about 165 hands for me to get the picture. It was clear I couldn't beat this guy - even tie.

[Boz]

Yes. I remember buying in for $500 and playing $10 a hand. There might have been a push or two. But it quickly evaporated to $180 without a win. The pit guy offered me a room when I cashed out so quickly with a stunned look on my face.

There are 3 that I know are very good at dealing 2nds and 1 I suspect. Typically, they work for the casino primarily during busy times to make APs go away. Recently, I got a 20 vs the suspects A. Now, I happen to know 13 were already played. So my 2 made 15. Negative RC was double digits. But lo and behold there was that last 10 under the A. An insurance decision needed to be made far more often than normal (like 3 times in a single negative deck). He had it everytime. It took 5 losing sessions in about 165 hands for me to get the picture. It was clear I couldn't beat this guy - even tie.

Recently? Why are you playing 6:5 SD BJ? J/K. So your evidence of seconds is that you counted 16 10s in one deck of cards, had a negative RC, and you lost. Not very compelling. In fact, the evidence is non-existent. There's quite a logic gap between what happened and what you assert.

I don't think it's any sin to wonder if there's something up with the cards or the dealer every so often if you're on a bad run and trying to figure stuff out. But I don't think any AP should actually believe that is the case after the variance has run its course, unless they have solid evidence. It's paranoid delusion, and I mean no offense.

[moses]

Recently? Why are you playing 6:5 SD BJ? J/K. So your evidence of seconds is that you counted 16 10s in one deck of cards, had a negative RC, and you lost. Not very compelling. In fact, the evidence is non-existent. There's quite a logic gap between what happened and what you assert.

I don't think it's any sin to wonder if there's something up with the cards or the dealer every so often if you're on a bad run and trying to figure stuff out. But I don't think any AP should actually believe that is the case after the variance has run its course, unless they have solid evidence. It's paranoid delusion, and I mean no offense.

Okay JVer. Firstly, I wouldn't play 6/5 with your money. I'm that nice of a guy. An example of bad variance is spreading to two hands with large bets - facing an Ace; getting an 11 on the first hand and 20 on the 2nd. Of course, insurance is taken with a high positive count and it isn't a BJ. Now you get the last Ace in the deck to go with your 11. The dealer flips over a 6 and draws a 4. So you lose 4 hands that started with two. That's bad variance. It happens.

But when a dealer continues to have a ten under the Ace time after time, even in extreme negative decks, I'm thinking he can find a ten in the deck whenever he chooses or sees an Ace up. You do understand there are 16 tens in a single deck of cards right? Any idea how often all 16 get played? Very rare in 6 rounds of straight up play. But when it looks like crap, smells like crap, don't eat it...it's crap!

I'm not saying paranoid is good but it's better than a backoff which stifles any chance for profit. However, there are things worse than a backoff like not getting a fair game which leaves little or no chance for profit and likely substiantial loss. At least you remain even with a backoff.

So you're spreading 25 to 1 in a pitch game and not getting or expecting heat? Something smells.

[Freightman]

Okay JVer. Firstly, I wouldn't play 6/5 with your money. I'm that nice of a guy. An example of bad variance is spreading to two hands with large bets - facing an Ace; getting an 11 on the first hand and 20 on the 2nd. Of course, insurance is taken with a high positive count and it isn't a BJ. Now you get the last Ace in the deck to go with your 11. The dealer flips over a 6 and draws a 4. So you lose 4 hands that started with two. That's bad variance. It happens.

But when a dealer continues to have a ten under the Ace time after time, even in a negative deck, I'm thinking he can find a ten in the deck whenever he chooses or sees an Ace up. You do understand there are 16 tens in a single deck of cards right? Any idea how often all 16 get played? Very rare in 6 rounds of straight up play. But when it looks like crap, smells like crap, don't eat it...it's crap!

I'm not saying paranoid is good but it's better than a backoff which stifles any chance for profit. However, there are things worse than a backoff like not getting a fair game which leaves little or no chance for profit and likely substiantial loss. At least you remain even with a backoff.

So you're spreading 25 to 1 in a pitch game and not getting or expecting heat? Something smells.

My wife and I, along with friends decided to spend an evening in Laughlin as a break to a Grand Canyon trip. I was playing a low stake pitch game with a dealer utilizing an "odd" style. His top fingers seemed to obscure the top of the deck, and I was losing a few bucks. Was he cheating? - don't know - but why stick around and chance it. Simply went elsewhere.

[Boz]

So you're spreading 25 to 1 in a pitch game and not getting or expecting heat? Something smells.

I do that at lots of places, Moses. Of course I am on the lookout for heat because of my play. Finding phantoms where I can demonstrate none exist just bolsters my opinion, don't you think? Take or leave my advice, don't matter to me. But you're certainly not going to convince me to watch out for dealers committing motiveless felonies.

P.S. Freightman, if it was anytime recently, I think I might know what dealer you are talking about. His unusual grip caught my attention. I concluded it was for speed and to prevent cards from flipping over. I broke even.

[moses]

My wife and I, along with friends decided to spend an evening in Laughlin as a break to a Grand Canyon trip. I was playing a low stake pitch game with a dealer utilizing an "odd" style. His top fingers seemed to obscure the top of the deck, and I was losing a few bucks. Was he cheating? - don't know - but why stick around and chance it. Simply went elsewhere.

Usually, this means he has put a small indentation at the top of tens and/or Aces with his fingernails. One guy flicks his wrists, like when a pitcher in baseball comes out of the pause position when pitching from a stretch. Yep, I shouldn't have kept challenging him but my ego got me. This guy was smooth and such a nice guy I kept thinking it was "bad variance" that would turn - at least a little. But it didn't. I get losing, but in this case the game wasn't even competitive.

There was a book on the very subject written by a former dealer/pit boss. I will have to see if I can still find it at the Library.