new counter looking for some advice...

[bec88]

Heya, me and my wife started playing at the casino last year and really enjoy socialized and have made good acquaintance with the dealers and pit at out regular store. We play each week. Last year we learned BS cold and just flat betted at the 5$ game with small 100$ buy-ins, sometimes we busted and sometimes we came out even or even won a little. We knew we were playing a losing game but looked at it as entertainment. I started really getting into the odds and the math of the game and started to practice counting, my wife started as well. For a few months we would still flat bet but practiced counting exercises at home and also at the casino in the live environment. Just in the past few months i started to get to the point where i can play the game, talk and interact with the dealers and other players while keeping track correctly. I decided a few weeks ago to invest a 4000$ bankroll into blackjack. I got the CVBJ and CVCX and ran the sim on my local game with a 1-8 spread with some wonging out and came up with arond 5.50$/hr with around 1% ROR, the SCORE is like 51. I wasnt too sure as people usually claim that 1-8 isnt really enough to "beat" a 6d game. My spread is TC<2=5$, TC2=15,TC3=20, TC4=40. i try to wong out when i can on bad counts and i also have most of the Ill 18 and fab 4 memorized.

. So far i have 10 hours logged and am up 325$ for a total for 4325 as of right now. first 5 hours i lost about 250 bucks then the last two small 2 hours sessions i had i won 270 and 260 bringing me above expectation.

My main concerns now are trying to transition from a known flat bettor to someone throwing out larger bets. 40$ top bet is not much compared to some of the regular ploppies but i have gotten some comments from dealers noticing how i started "betting big" I havent really done much as far as cover besides opening a shoe with a larger bet after having max bets out at the end of the last shoe. I start getting paranoid thinking i am being watched but in all honestly i dont think the pit has even picked up on what i am doing, and if they do, then they might not even care as i am honestly not even affecting their bottom line with my game. Another main concern is i am pretty consistent tipper, not a whole lot but i always tip the good dealers a few bucks. I usually make sure to give at least each dealer a dollar tip when they leave their 20 min cycle, so i know in all honesty i am tipping away my EV and playing a pretty much break even game. I am not really trying to make money, but just to take my game the next level and have a good time, i keep my session "bankroll" in one pocket and my "gambling money" in the other for drinks and video poker or other tables games we might play.

My wife is able to help me, she can watch behind me and on a few occasions so far she has kept watch of the cards in a negative count while i wonged out and ran to the bathroom or get a drink to let the ploppies eat the cards.
I feel like my game is "good" according to the CVCX sim, according to that, i can raise my spread to 12 units and get up to around 7.50/hr with not much more ROR, but i am afraid of drawing too much heat considering the profile i have at this place as a regular each weekend.

Do you suggest keep it at the spread 1-8 for a while until that becomes the new "normal" then try to up the bets later on? i would like to show some profit for my efforts but i really do not want to get backed off at this store. I am new to this whole thing and really dont have the first hand experience dealing with all the human factors that go into the game like heat and etc outside of the actual playing the game....

Just wanted to see if you guys could get an idea on my personal situation and have some pointers, alot of the online info seems to pertain to people jumping around from casino to casino attacking hard looking to maximize EV, i dont see so much information just playing a recreational "break-even" sort of game for fun. Earning the food comps and stuff is pretty fun. Overall i feel we are doing ourselves a favor. Our outlook has really changed pertaining to playing in the casino, playing blackjack without counting and playing at advantage just doesnt have the appeal it once did once you know how to actually play the game correctly.... only real reason to play a flat betting losing game now is if we socialize with friends and have a few drinks, its worth the cost of entertainment then, but to sit there and grind out a losing basic strategy game isnt the same anymore.

Thanks for any advice.

[Freightman]

Your clearly not trying to set the world on fire - just a few comments.

Try to tip less - your toking 60% of your EV, leaving you with the princely sum of $2.00 per hour.
Start ramping at about true 1.25-1.5. House edge if .48 puts u even with the house at true 1.0. Waiting to true +2 leaves to many hands on the table betting min when u have an advantage. Practice your comportment. In other words, you are hopefully, not obvious with your counting. When dealer comments about your changed betting protocol, just say something to the effect of a bigger thrill when u win. At $5 min, you are not setting off any alarm bells, nor will you set off alarm bells at $60 bet. Good forward thinking to get CVCX so early in your career. Just make sure you are inputting the correct system info. Also, note th custom bets - from this u can see differences between optimal ramps displayed and adjusting against various scenarios. It's good that your wife has an interest - u can develop together - makes for good teamwork. Don't worry about setting the house on fire - season yourself thru play and getting some good books. They're several out there. Let us know your count system and we should be able to give u DK e good recommendations.

[bec88]

Using hi-lo. And I did forget to mention that in my previous post but I do for sure raise to 10 bucks around tc1.5. I used the half couting setting and it shows around 2 units at TC 1.5. I should have mentioned that my bad. I noticed the good penetration makes a good difference. CVCX goes ahead and relaxes the spread when you put in better penetration. My current settings has it putting top bet out at tc5 to keep risk low. If I get top bet at TC4 it raised risk slightly but increased ev slightly as well. I also picked up wongs professional blackjack for reference as well.

[Freightman]

Using hi-lo. And I did forget to mention that in my previous post but I do for sure raise to 10 bucks around tc1.5. I used the half couting setting and it shows around 2 units at TC 1.5. I should have mentioned that my bad. I noticed the good penetration makes a good difference. CVCX goes ahead and relaxes the spread when you put in better penetration. My current settings has it putting top bet out at tc5 to keep risk low. If I get top bet at TC4 it raised risk slightly but increased ev slightly as well. I also picked up wongs professional blackjack for reference as well.

Bedtime for me, so, I'll comment in more detail later. For now, you're doing all the right shit.

[Masterhoudini]

I think there's two aspects that require seperate advising here 1.) your goals, 2.) your game.

1.) You mentioned you wanna play a winning game and not be a sucker, and you just wanna enjoy the ride kinda thing, have fun at the casino. Is your motivation money? And how much? Is it the thrill of beating the house? Is it just to enjoy a hobby?

I feel like if money isn't a factor for you and you're happy with your recreational $6/hr or break even game, all is good. The issue though is whether there will be a transition point where it IS a factor and becomes a greater factor than enjoyment of the status quo. What if you could make $500EV/hr, 100k, 250k, 500k a year? Would backoffs be ok then? I'm just putting this out there just as a reasonable evolution in your card counting goals.

One of my good friends wanted to learn how to count cards. He knows I stack it and counting is a winning system and I helped him win 3k when I went to visit. However, he loves to gamble recreationally, play cards with his buddies etc. I told him not to learn to count cause it would destroy his enjoyment for the game and the gambling experience for him. The grind, the effort it takes, the swings really make it more like work and suck the fun out of it. For me, it's the $$ in counting, always has been and always will be. I don't find counting enjoyable at all, but it IS financially rewarding. He never learned, and he still loves playing the game. I never respected him any less for it.

2.) If you're content with your results, there are a couple things to incorporate.

You need to read up on some surrender indexes.

I think your bet ramp is too weak and not aggressive and quick enough- why are you betting the same at tc2, when you have advantage at tc 1 in your game?

You should definitely bet more at tc2. You should also consider having some bet movements at half counts 1.5, 2.5 etc. to make it look like you raise your bet often.

Quite frankly I don't think your spread would make any noise anywhere except a total sweatjoint. I would assume you could play forever at those stakes.

You really should not worry at all about cover and heat etc.- because remember also you are there for recreation!!

Also I disagree with the reduce your tipping thing. You should tip what you feel comfortable with. If you're fine tipping away all your EV or even beyond your EV, it's ok, because you're not in it to grind every penny out like your average card counter.

Finally, cumulative win is eventually what will get you if they care. At your pace, It's not likely to matter much, but you can consider ratholing some red and green as well to make it look like you're a lifetime loser.

As for comp hustling, try to bet more regardless of count when pit is recording average bet and establish a friendly rapport- which it sounds like you're doing already.

[bec88]

Yeah at this point it's more of an enjoyment thing. Can't say that the potential money wouldn't be a bigger factor in future but as if now I do draw a bit of satisfaction knowing I'm "beating the house" even if nobody around me realizes it. Also it's something my wife is interested in and she has the same realistic understanding of how it all works and can even do it herself. That allows us to enjoy some good company together and provides good cover. Either way if I were to really up the stakes I still wouldn't necessarily want to burn my name at this local joint as we have made good relationships with people there and at this point I value that more than drawing a thin profit. There are other local joints I may be able to hit up or maybe hit it harder when traveling. I'll highlight my spread once more I been using since I broke it up over 2 posts. What I have used so far is tc<=1- 5$...tc1.5 - 10$....tc2- 15$....tc3-20$....tc4-40. If this still seems too relaxed what would be a good recommendation? I haven't added any .5 increments besides the tc1.5 as of yet. I will look into that.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

An 8-1 spread serves me very well in 6 deck S17 games with 75% pen'

All you need to do is learn to play Hi-Opt II with an Ace Side Count.

I gladly mentor those who contact me.

[Stealth]

My main concerns now are trying to transition from a known flat bettor to someone throwing out larger bets.

First, betting a top bet of $40 is highly unlikely to get you any heat for a long, long time.

Yes your bet ramp should be more aggressive, like 1-12. There are some techniques to minimize exposure of your ramp to the pit but I do not believe you need them until you reach green chips. One is to use your wife and play as a team. PM if interested.

Tipping can be done, less expensively by placing the dollar (tip) on your bet instead of in front of your bet and, if you win, give the dollar you won to the dealer and keep the dollar you bet.

Troubled by your 99% perfect basic strategy. Very, very important that basic strategy is 100%, no exceptions. When certifying for a team, if you make one basic strategy error you fail and cannot play until you retest and pass. While you are not certifying for a team, I tell you this to highlight the cost of making errors in BS.

PS: the game you described is a very good one especially due to the rule set AND such deep penetration.

2 Books you should read:
Blackjack Life, Nathaniel Tilton - fun read and highly informative about entering the blackjack advantage world
Blackjack Attack, 3rd Edition, Don Schlesinger - The encyclopedia of blackjack. A must to get a blackjack education and answers for all the questions.

[Freightman]

An 8-1 spread serves me very well in 6 deck S17 games with 75% pen'

All you need to do is learn to play Hi-Opt II with an Ace Side Count.

I gladly mentor those who contact me.

He indicated a local H17 game - good rules with excellent pen. S17 makes up for some of that lost pen. As a newbie, let him get his feet wet first - season himself, learn some indices etc. He doesn't really seem to know where he is going yet - just that he's on a journey with no real known destination. MH raised some good points that apply here.

[Romes]

An 8-1 spread serves me very well in 6 deck S17 games with 75% pen'

All you need to do is learn to play Hi-Opt II with an Ace Side Count.

I gladly mentor those who contact me.

Ha, full of questions "b" =)... I've given him about oh, 20-30 pages of follow up Q/A on WOV after referencing the 20-30 pages of articles I've written on the topic and posted there in their Articles section.

He's getting good, but he needs to learn one last thing... self sufficient. "Bec" you have all of the information to answer your own questions at this point. Years down the line (or even say on a trip next weekend) you might come across an opportunity that you won't be able to have someone else solve for you right away. Learning to answer these questions with the materials I've provided you with now will make you able to solve these issues on the fly as well. This means you'll be able to capitalize on advantages you stumble upon or what not.

Lastly, as I know some members of this site will promote them... Only switch to a higher level count if you want and are comfortable. Without re-drawing up the great count debate (I really don't want to) you don't need anything other than Hi/Low to be successful with the game(s) you've presented to me and plan to play. Anything more would be overkill.

[Masterhoudini]

Lastly, as I know some members of this site will promote them... Only switch to a higher level count if you want and are comfortable. Without re-drawing up the great count debate (I really don't want to) you don't need anything other than Hi/Low to be successful with the game(s) you've presented to me and plan to play. Anything more would be overkill.

For shame Romes, I'm disappointed in you buddy. You know with a higher level count he could make an extra 18 cents EV an hour and with a linear regression complex count he could make an extra 23 cents an hour!!! Can someone think of the poor starving children!!??

[bec88]

Yeah Romes i hear you, i try to find answers to questions but this "hobby" is more secretive than most so its not so clear cut on how to exactly do things and you cant exactly talk about it to just anyone unless they also devote the time to try and understand how it really works.. Your personal help plus other forums posts have been priceless to me.
I think i will stick to high low, it seems to do the job just fine. I still feel like a total newb and see a long road ahead but i see progress. The whole human side of things is the more mysterious aspect to it all, but i figure that comes with more experience.

[Romes]

You really have come a long way from your first message about how much to spread... Now you can run your EV's on your games, play with your spread/edge for different games/tolerances, and so much more. I'm sure it's overwhelming the amount of different topics and things we've discussed, but they're all there in the messages if you need to review. For the most part, especially when it comes to any kind of numbers, you should definitely have the material, tools, and knowledge at this point to answer said questions. That statement is more of a belief in you than anything else =P.