Can you win at blackjack without counting cards

**Norm** · 02-25-2016, 03:46 AM

Getting out of bed in the morning is gambling.

**Bodarc** · 02-25-2016, 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by Norm

Getting out of bed in the morning is gambling.

I don't like the odds! I'll pass.

RS · 02-25-2016, 05:51 AM

OP, there are many ways to beat blackjack as well as (just about) every other casino game: blackjack & other table games, slots & video poker, video & live keno, hosts & marketing, as well as promotions. Some places you can get +EV at the restaurants, although legal, some would say unethical. Sometimes you need both in conjunction in order to win -- sometimes you don't.

Vulnerabilities exist in every game.

But you can't beat a game due to money management or some betting system. You need an advantage somewhere...but simply increasing or decreasing the size of your bets WITHOUT regard to your advantage/disadvantage, is not going to make you a winner.

Originally Posted by Frank Galvin

Please explain that for me. WIN ON PUSHES??? I cannot wrap my simple mind around that comment, since I do not believe that by definition, one can win when the result is a tie.

Not sure what stopgambling is referring to specifically (other than perhaps a promotion of some sorts)....but amazing things can be found if you look hard enough and for the right conditions. I found a game where, if played "properly", you would essentially get paid a (sizable) bonus on most hands. Win/lose/push you'd get the bonus. The downside is BJ's paid even money with no bonus. And doubling-down was restricted, too.

**seriousplayer** · 02-25-2016, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by bumpneely3535

I have been playing for about a year. Up and down game...mostly down. Seem like I am playing the same lousy hands over and over; even when moving tables. Can the shoe game be beaten. or to have a chance of winning at BJ...is counting card needed. Do you think the card are being shuffled by machine...same bad hands over and over again....(13-16)...l

Yes, Blackjack can be beaten without card counting. But you must use other forms of advantage play method and not a betting progression system. You cannot beat Blackjack raising and lowing your bet based on wins and loses.

**CallSaul** · 02-25-2016, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by Moses

Why does a dog lick his balls? Because he can?

Originally Posted by Freightman

I know these guys watching a dog do just that. One of them said - I wish I could do that. His friend said - ask nicely and maybe he'll let you.

I heard another permutation of that joke years ago:

One guy says to the other, "I wish I could do that." The friend responds "he'd bite you!"

**BlackJackAgain** · 02-29-2016, 06:17 PM

1. There are still positive OTT games around - if you are happy with a 0.1% advantage you can beat those without counting
2. Games where you can get LR (Loss Rebate) can be beaten without counting (ask Don Johnson)
3. No, I have no idea where North Americans can find these conditions

**DatabaseGuy** · 03-02-2016, 09:27 AM

I think most people who pick a shoe game over a CSM obviously believe they can beat the system. I see folks who raise their bets after simply observing a couple swings with a lot of 2-6 cards and lowering them when a lot of tens showed up. These casual APs also know BS to an extent. You can tell they don't know the departures and always hit on 16vT even with a high count. Overall these players break "even" at best.

As for breaking even, unless you religiously record your wins and losses and can tell you really are breaking even, you're probably are a loser. Just that the exhilaration of wins tends to numb out the pain of your losses.

Unless you are a counter and do it well, you are going to lose money over time. Now, this could be a past time for you, a cheaper one than shooting guns or driving an old Corvette.

**DatabaseGuy** · 03-02-2016, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by bj21abc

1. There are still positive OTT games around - if you are happy with a 0.1% advantage you can beat those without counting
2. Games where you can get LR (Loss Rebate) can be beaten without counting (ask Don Johnson)
3. No, I have no idea where North Americans can find these conditions

I am not convinced Don did not count. Officially he didn't.

**Three** · 03-02-2016, 10:00 AM

His advantage as not derived from counting but he worked many angles. Obvious counting would kill the golden goose.

**DatabaseGuy** · 03-02-2016, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Tthree

His advantage as not derived from counting but he worked many angles. Obvious counting would kill the golden goose.

But you agree that non obvious counting would not?

**Three** · 03-02-2016, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by DatabaseGuy

But you agree that non obvious counting would not?

Yes.

RS · 03-02-2016, 01:17 PM

I heard the GWAE show w/ Don Johnson. I didn't get the impression he was an AP per se. More like he was a regular big player gambler who stumbled upon something good and got lucky, as it appeared he didn't even know how to play it optimally (or knew there'd be an optimal way to play). He could'a been dumbing it down for the show, but it didn't seem like it.

**Three** · 03-02-2016, 01:31 PM

He knew the optimal departure point better than the accepted way of working the rebate. I won't go into the other stuff he did but he worked many angles at the same time. A lot of thought and planning obviously went into what he was doing.