I just can't stand these old guys that post that --- oops, just remembered my age.
With all due respect Zee, I couldn't care-less about the history of your gambling addiction. The fact that you still fear your addiction 45 years later tells me you are not a successful (I'm sure our definition of this word differs) card counter and you never could have made it as a professional, YOU definitely chose the right road for YOU.
Had I been in your shoes I'd still be sleeping on bags of old one-hundred dollar bills from playing the great games. (My O/U 13 pillowcase would be packed especially tight)
I do not care about the number of aspiring card counters that have failed. They are not any more relevant to me than you are. Because others have failed does not mean one shouldn't try.
The question of IF it's the way someone wants to live is completely separate from the ability to do such thing.
I would fully support my child in any goal he or she may have. I am not going to "protect" them from failure. If I was on my deathbed I would be a lot more satisfied having taken a chance and failed than living scared.
Not to turn this into a psych session but I, like so many out there, had dreams of playing in the NBA. One day my step-dad straight up said it wouldn't happen. I was like 12. I remember hearing that and it crushed me. I had many many people telling me "if you work hard enough..." but which comment do you think affected me more? I could/would never do that to anyone.
Even if I do "fail" to make AP a career and only last 5 years, I will regret nothing. I would recommend ANYONE to chase ANY dream in the ripe ages of 20-30 because once you miss the chance it's gone.
I dealt card for 5 years and I can't tell you the number of miserable people I worked with and dealt cards to. On my last day a regular degen was about in tears because I told her I'm leaving the industry to chase a dream, she was audibly reflecting on her own life and I could see the disappointment. That feeling scares me a hell of a lot more than failure.
Last edited by Sweaty; 02-21-2016 at 06:42 PM.
You are sounding like a dinosaur. First, there is no 12 year old. I was addressing the 21 year olds. Second, the days of telling your kid to do what they want, pursue idiotic dreams is why there are folks in jail, folks barely surviving while the parents who provided more guidance (than simply telling their kids to go their own way before they are ready) have their kids grow up doing better than surviving in demeaning carriers, going bankrupt and more.Originally Posted by Sweaty
Today, we import young people from around the world who had no choice but to be guided by their parents and who became scientists, engineers and more while growing up, come here to be served by Americans.
In my neighborhood lives a Chinese Engineer and an Indian Doctor, both having come here, learned the language, graduated from American universities and now have as Gardner, maid and trash collectors, the very folks whose idiotic parents told them to go pursue stupid dreams when they could have done better.
Globalization has left few paths for our children to become middle class, the jobs are gone and it is even more important than ever before for folks to have better guidance than this.
My my advice to the under 30's is to go get a good career and play BJ part-time and then if you do screw up and learn BJ is not for you, you have a career to fall back on.
Going back to the topic of the OP.
If you were to divide the forum into two groups 'old men' and 'young lads', I would probably fall under the latter.
I am still relatively new to counting (less than two years), so I would definitely not say that I've 'made it' or anything or the sort. I've made lots of progress in my understanding of the game and I am at the point where I have all the fundamentals down. What's next is just refining my game where I see fit. To me, I see this as an important milestone, since most of the people I've met who 'count' (read: try to count) aren't really too far off from the people who've discovered a get-rich betting system and are ready to cash in. As far as they go is being able to counting down the deck; they don't appear to have any knowledge of ramps/spread, conditions, indexes or bankroll management. What I am getting at is that out of the many reasons why the majority of aspiring counters don't make there are at least a few I can cross one off my list. The type of 'counter' I described is someone who wasn't able to get started at all.
My results so far have been fair. To my estimates, they are pretty close to EV. I say estimates because my ramp and spread have changed quite a few times and I can't put an exact number of hands I played at each spread among other changes I've made to my game.
I have been meaning to post my results along with a bit of a narrative describing my journey thus far, but I've been hesitating because I'm not sure if there would be any interest.
There are a number of incredibly interesting topics here that have been brought up for debate.
Age: I am actually quite perplexed that this has come up as a point of discussion. Simply put, I just fail to grasp how it would make any difference at all in your success as a card counter and AP. However, I can certainly think of some potential pros and cons and some obstacles and limitations that could hamper success at any age- finances, maturity and personal development come to my mind.
Youth is not equivalent to immaturity and lack of judgement: While it is true that many parts of the brain are not fully developed until around age 26, including those areas responsible for executive function and judgement, this should not necessarily be a deterrent to the pursuit of AP. It's common to see many immature young kids watching 21 or coming on forums and hearing success stories and wanting to pursue this dream for themselves. However, the same could be said for someone middle aged or older nearing retirement or beyond pursuing this as a second vocation. They have completely unrealistic expectations and don't consider much long term planning, hone their skills, or do anything to further their success and make this dream a reality. As a result, most will fail for a variety of reasons, the least of which is related to age. The fact is, we all have dreams- personal, career, academic, spiritual, philanthropic. Dreams require an incredible dedication and also a little luck usually along the way to become reality though. Opportunities come to those who are prepared. I know quite a few younger people who have achieved a lot of success in card counting and AP- none of us did it overnight but I think we will all attest to the fact that it wasn't that easy.
Defining your goals for AP: What are you looking to achieve from this? Is it financial freedom, a monetary goal, love for the game and the pursuit of challenge? What is available to me, and how and what steps are necessary to achieving those goals? I think many up and coming APs are really doing themselves a disservice by not considering these questions carefully. Another question that goes along with this is, well what's up next and what happens along the way if I fail? Many will agree that there generally is either a shelf life sort of expiry of a pro card counter AP. I'm gonna go ahead and put an estimate out there and say it's 10 years or 2 million dollars solo. This is just due to the nature of beast- personal toll on life, backoffs and lack of sites to play, a combination of everything. That's not to say there are not recreational players who play 40 years or more making 10-50k a year. The caution here is to find a personal pursuit, career endeavour or otherwise to do after AP or when you quit AP full time, whatever comes first. It's harsh for others to say, just don't do it, you'll fail etc. and particularly annoying from those who are ignorant or have never achieved success, but I would just advise anyone in serious pursuit to carefully consider these aspects.
Lastly, try not to let the negativity get to you. It sometimes feels like a fruitless endeavour- I personally have had so many trials along the way and also lots of questions and doubts as well- I still do and probably always will. The pursuit of AP is also undoubtedly quite lonely- average people don't really fully grasp it, many feel it is an addiction, other degenerate gamblers or ploppies don't understand, and well, oftentimes even your fellow APs may not fully understand nor care. The forums are also a mixed bag- You may be in disbelief or feel angered or annoyed by trolls, stupid people, wannabes, washed up former self proclaimed gurus etc. I asked myself many times whether these were actually real people- I still ask myself this. Nevertheless, I see it as part of the mental and academic development of an AP- considering different perspectives, timeframes, geography, and pockets of information from these sources and consolidating them.
If you want to pursue AP, just do it! It is fine to do so at any age, but always be prepared.
Ps: I didn't feel the need to paraphrase or respond to zeebabar's posts directly, but there is no scientific evidence that cc is an addiction.
I never stated that someone should not be card counting. I simply stated my view that it is important to develop another career first and count recreationally. A time may come when you might try the full time gig but you should have something to fall back on. One reason you find a lot of older folks in casinos is because they have fixed income or sources of income,they may have raised a family, found love and more and a casino is recreation.
BJ is not conducive to developing a career, developing relationships, getting the respect and recognition of being a productive citizen. It's not much of a career because the shelf life of a full time successful pro is 10-15 years, but most others, it's probably far less. SCG has a very nice post about this on another forum where he announced his retirement, that after being a highly successful full time pro generating well over 6 figures for years, he recognized the price he has paid.
As one guy described an AP or a full time card counter...Vultures that circle around and feed on the left overs (the ploppies) after the lion (casino) has finished his meal. The lion (casino) snaps at the vultures (card counters), keeps an eye out for them while he is eating . Appropriate or not, it's not a respected profession.
Last edited by ZeeBabar; 02-22-2016 at 02:17 AM.
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