Quick question: How big a bankroll needed to be full time player?

[MJGolf]

OK, this is not for me but for my edification. I have a friend (won't name names). Recently lost their job due to the downturn in the oil industry. We were discussing just what bankroll would be needed to graduate from part time, like we are, to full time, like he would like to take a chance at.

Munchkin has always said.......GWAE, etc., that you can make $25-$50 hour EASY just counting without further AP techniques. IF that was an acceptable level of income per hour playing, what bankroll would you guys truly suggest is necessary?

I know KJ has made a living at this game. I know others have a lot bigger bankroll and play this game truly professionally. Much higher stakes. I'm just asking for advice as to what would truly be a reasonable bankroll for him to have IF he can NOW devote full time to this game, travel, etc. Nyne has written lots in threads about computing in percentage for travel expenses, etc. For example, is $30k enough to start?

He is an experienced counter; many indices beyond I-18. Hi/Lo

OK, maybe "brief" would be better than "quick". And since no one seems to read past original post (though asked for more details to qualify answers), I will also edit here:

Additional facts or factors:

No kids; they are grown. Yes, mortgage. A car payment. Wife is working or provides second income for family. Very good counter and skills. Within parameters given above. No other AP techniques yet. (At least as to useable additional skills; he is a good video poker player at Jacks or better) He is not young; but definitely not retirement age.

Other payments/living expenses can be handled by spouse....so to speak. Really looking at replacement income for job.

[Freightman]

OK, this is not for me but for my edification. I have a friend (won't name names). Recently lost their job due to the downturn in the oil industry. We were discussing just what bankroll would be needed to graduate from part time, like we are, to full time, like he would like to take a chance at.

Munchkin has always said.......GWAE, etc., that you can make $25-$50 hour EASY just counting without further AP techniques. IF that was an acceptable level of income per hour playing, what bankroll would you guys truly suggest is necessary?

I know KJ has made a living at this game. I know others have a lot bigger bankroll and play this game truly professionally. Much higher stakes. I'm just asking for advice as to what would truly be a reasonable bankroll for him to have IF he can NOW devote full time to this game, travel, etc. Nyne has written lots in threads about computing in percentage for travel expenses, etc. For example, is $30k enough to start?

He is an experienced counter; many indices beyond I-18. Hi/Lo

Not withstanding his exit package - what's his monthly nut. Does he have a mortgage, kids, car payments. Is he realistic about his skill level. How well does he deal with losing streaks - how much dollar backup does he have outside of his playing bankroll.

I would sure hate to advise anyone on this without some further info. Like any field of endeavour, many will fail, the cream will usually float to the top.

[Freightman]

Not withstanding his exit package - what's his monthly nut. Does he have a mortgage, kids, car payments. Is he realistic about his skill level. How well does he deal with losing streaks - how much dollar backup does he have outside of his playing bankroll.

I would sure hate to advise anyone on this without some further info. Like any field of endeavour, many will fail, the cream will usually float to the top.

Should also add travel expenses plus month to month living expenses need to be added into the equation and that means rpthat ror numbers need to be revisited.

[marriedputter]

Like Freightman said, far more information is needed, but I can't imagine even attempting it without at least a $50,000 BR.

[stopgambling]

What ? let's make at least 100k plus 1-2 year of expenses ,travel cost ,blah.,blah ,blah also needed to be factored in!

[Three]

Your BR depends on the games you plan on playing and the system you will use and the spread. But you seem to want a general figure that could be way off if someone was playing crappy games with a weaker count and a small spread or the swings that would come with a larger, more appropriate spread. I would want at least $60K if not 6 figures. You are talking about living off the winnings right. You can go a long time losing and still have to pay the bills. If he is very disciplined he should be able design a plan of attack that would work with Hilo but the needing monthly money for paying bills is a tough one to add to the equation. Hearing the Hilo players bitch about the swings makes me wonder if he needs far more. I think there are at least a couple hilo specialists that have the discipline and added skillz to make Hilo work. You really need someone experienced in that count to make a more educated recommendation. I never used Hilo so my experience probably isn't much use to this friend.

[stopgambling]

I also doubt one can make much from that kind of bankroll. in a 5 year(300-500 solid hours /year) span I had 3 times down swing of 35%-50+ % of my bank gone . i was playing quite good games and some really good games. i was also spreading quite aggressively or wong out aggressively. My bank did grew but it was gut wrenching. p.s. I was playing 3/4 kelly at first and switched to 1/2 kelly but still ,it was not fun at all.

[MJGolf]

Just some added facts; no kids; they are grown. Yes, mortgage. Wife has second income. Very good counter and skills. Within parameters given above. No other AP techniques yet.

Other payments/living expenses can be handled by spouse....so to speak. Really looking at replacement income for job. I think from what you guys stated, that the BR needs to be higher to allow for the swings.

[Freightman]

Brings up an interesting point. If I was far younger and considering this endeavour....

I would be doing everything possible to increase my likely shoestring bankroll, probably staying in cheap accommodation - doing everything possible to reduce expense. I would grind out longer hours to make more money - the sole purpose being to generate cash as in increased bankroll. This is no different than when I started my business about 19 years ago - generate cash at the lowest possible expense.

I am now semi retired, working probably an average if 2 mornings a week, though I could get it all done in one day. I no longer have the luxury of playing in my local market - thus all play is out of town. On a personal basis, I have no debt, cars and house are paid for and I have money put away. I do have some investment debt, self supporting, though I will likely divest myself of this this year, netting good dollars in the process. My playing bankroll is separated from all assets.

I have the following criteria.
I won't stay in a sleaze bag, preferring middle to higher end depending on wheather or not my wife us with me.
I will allocate $200 to $300 per day for expense depending on wheather I'm driving or flying. In some cases, I can actually reduce this to, let's say, $50 per day. My trips will be 3-5 days.
I will stretch my spreads, though not go hog wild, as I want to rinse and repeat the stores.
I have overhead expenses not associated with playing trips. These would include travel medical insurance.
I don't plan on more than 2 trips per month. I need to adjust my play and scouting, taking into account certain physical limitations. This will require me, in some instances to increase expense.

Some may view my overhead structure as being a bit chubby, but I don't think I would settle for anything less at this stage.

[Freightman]

Just some added facts; no kids; they are grown. Yes, mortgage. Wife has second income. Very good counter and skills. Within parameters given above. No other AP techniques yet.

Other payments/living expenses can be handled by spouse....so to speak. Really looking at replacement income for job. I think from what you guys stated, that the BR needs to be higher to allow for the swings.

Depending on the specifics, let's say his mortgage commitment is $1000 per month. Add on his travel expenses. Now, does he have a seperate, let's say 6 month supply to handle these contingencies, or some combination thereof - factor that into his ror calculations. Does he need full, or just partial replacement income. Regardless, that number also needs to be factored in. Don't forget taxes for a US resident. Don't forget that he needs to add, at least some of his operating profit to grow his bankroll. If he doesn't do that, his ror will be 100% - sooner or later. If he does everything properly as described, he still needs to choose how he declsres income - others more familiar than I can pipe in on that one.

The big message. Look before you leap.

[houyi]

I've considered this multiple times but haven't been able to pull the trigger for a variety of factors, cowardice probably being the greatest one, lol.

Regardless of the exact answer, which will vary depending on many factors, it is very useful to consider if the player in question has some skills to make a side income to help manage living expenses so that he might devote more of his counting winnings to bankroll growth. Ideally, whatever side income he chooses to pursue would stem from activities that can be done remotely, as travel is a necessity.

[Stealth]

OK, this is not for me but for my edification. I have a friend (won't name names). Recently lost their job due to the downturn in the oil industry. We were discussing just what bankroll would be needed to graduate from part time, like we are, to full time, like he would like to take a chance at.

Munchkin has always said.......GWAE, etc., that you can make $25-$50 hour EASY just counting without further AP techniques. IF that was an acceptable level of income per hour playing, what bankroll would you guys truly suggest is necessary?

I know KJ has made a living at this game. I know others have a lot bigger bankroll and play this game truly professionally. Much higher stakes. I'm just asking for advice as to what would truly be a reasonable bankroll for him to have IF he can NOW devote full time to this game, travel, etc. Nyne has written lots in threads about computing in percentage for travel expenses, etc. For example, is $30k enough to start?

He is an experienced counter; many indices beyond I-18. Hi/Lo

This is a little like asking how much money do you need to live. Answers will vary depending on what we consider "live"!

I would do the math bottom up and see what is the minimum earnings required for me to become full or part time. That would involve a detailed budget of casinos, travel expense, required living expenses, and minimum profit to get the number I needed to survive. Then I would look at the casinos/games/ev per round/number of rounds per week required to generate that previously identified amount and to tell me what bankroll I needed to accomplish that.

Since, this is not a hobby, my risk tolerance would be low (less than 1% with kelly at .5) all in the interest of protecting my bank. I would complete my plan with a predetermined increase/decrease in bet ramps given any meaningful ($5K-10K) move up or down in my bankroll.

When I knew those items were in my reach, I would then do a serious self analysis of my game and my personality to insure I had the fortitude and the discipline to carry this out. Realizing that one night of "chasing" when experiencing bad variance could spiral the entire thing out of control.

If I got by those things, then I would undertake implementing my program with a well defined check and balance system to measure my results against my expectations while looking for abnormalities. After about six months of proven track record, I woul begin to add other types of AP play to my bag. These would serve to mitigate some of the variance in the BJ game and add positive ev.

This is not the answer that you were looking as I do not believe that answer is forthcoming without the detailed work mentioned above. Above all, understand the risk to your lifestyle, family and friends as you will come to know that not many of them understand. They likely think you are just a gambler.

Best of luck in your venture, whichever way you go.

[Freightman]

This is a little like asking how much money do you need to live. Answers will vary depending on what we consider "live"!

I would do the math bottom up and see what is the minimum earnings required for me to become full or part time. That would involve a detailed budget of casinos, travel expense, required living expenses, and minimum profit to get the number I needed to survive. Then I would look at the casinos/games/ev per round/number of rounds per week required to generate that previously identified amount and to tell me what bankroll I needed to accomplish that.

Since, this is not a hobby, my risk tolerance would be low (less than 1% with kelly at .5) all in the interest of protecting my bank. I would complete my plan with a predetermined increase/decrease in bet ramps given any meaningful ($5K-10K) move up or down in my bankroll.

When I knew those items were in my reach, I would then do a serious self analysis of my game and my personality to insure I had the fortitude and the discipline to carry this out. Realizing that one night of "chasing" when experiencing bad variance could spiral the entire thing out of control.

If I got by those things, then I would undertake implementing my program with a well defined check and balance system to measure my results against my expectations while looking for abnormalities. After about six months of proven track record, I woul begin to add other types of AP play to my bag. These would serve to mitigate some of the variance in the BJ game and add positive ev.

This is not the answer that you were looking as I do not believe that answer is forthcoming without the detailed work mentioned above. Above all, understand the risk to your lifestyle, family and friends as you will come to know that not many of them understand. They likely think you are just a gambler.

Best of luck in your venture, whichever way you go.

Nicely said