what is the minimum spread to beat 6-deck game?

[Ali D]

Hi,
I had a losing streak and I need to lower my bet spread and I need your help
Assuming that I play a 6-deck with 0.21 house edge, counting with hi-low (or KO) and using 16 index plays, what is the minimum bet spread that is required to beat the game, even slightly?
Also assume that after one deck is dealt, I do not play negative counts and can wong-in back in positive counts all the time
My old bet spread was 1 to 10, but I should lower it, I will appreciate your ideas about this as I have not been able to find anything on Internet about this

Thank you

[Freightman]

The 2 questions I ask myself when I sit down are
1. What spread do I need to beat this
2. What spread can I get away with

Given generally favourable rules, spread needed to beat is dependant on deck penetration. Deeper the cut, the lower the spread required. You are quoting a .21 HE on a 6 deck game which heavily suggests extremely favourable rules - so favourable in fact, I would suggest redoing your calcs to confirm - of post them here which would likely include S17, ES or ES10, surrender RSA.

With what you've posted, accepted protocol suggests 1-8 spread, though with deep pen I think you go less, though I haven't simmed this. Having said this, I would never play 1-6, and seldom 1-8 on a 6 deck shoe.

Again, and I emphasize - double check your house edge.

[Freightman]

I should point out the deep pen is required in order to increase frequency of profitable true counts.

[Bodarc]

Ali D what are the rules and penetration of your game?

[Ali D]

The 2 questions I ask myself when I sit down are
1. What spread do I need to beat this
2. What spread can I get away with

Given generally favourable rules, spread needed to beat is dependant on deck penetration. Deeper the cut, the lower the spread required. You are quoting a .21 HE on a 6 deck game which heavily suggests extremely favourable rules - so favourable in fact, I would suggest redoing your calcs to confirm - of post them here which would likely include S17, ES or ES10, surrender RSA.

With what you've posted, accepted protocol suggests 1-8 spread, though with deep pen I think you go less, though I haven't simmed this. Having said this, I would never play 1-6, and seldom 1-8 on a 6 deck shoe.

Again, and I emphasize - double check your house edge.

Yes you are right, rules are very good on this game and all those options that you mentioned are available. they have even surrender option up to 3 cards!
Penetration is not that good, it is 70% at most, but nobody cares if I sit out of some hands and then play again, there is almost no heat whatsoever and there is not a single basic-strategy player on the table!
if early wong-out and unlimited wong-in is available to you, could you get a small edge with 1 to 6 spread? would this option offset for average penetration here?

[Ali D]

Ali D what are the rules and penetration of your game?

European no-hole card, early surrender vs Ten, DAS, DOA, surrender up to 3 cards, resplit aces up to 3 hands, soft 17
penetration is 70% at most, but wonging in and out is very possible. I mean I can play whenever I want and sit out hands that I do not want and return to game anytime without leaving the table.

[Freightman]

European no-hole card, early surrender vs Ten, DAS, DOA, surrender up to 3 cards, resplit aces up to 3 hands, soft 17
penetration is 70% at most, but wonging in and out is very possible. I mean I can play whenever I want and sit out hands that I do not want and return to game anytime without leaving the table.

I still would have to sim this - those rules make up for a lot if shitty pen. It needs to be downgraded by the ENHC rules. The Wong p in/out factor is very inviting. That surrender on 3 cards is huge, depending in how it's constructed. My prior comment about never going 1-6 spread on 6deck shoe is predicated on a play all approach. It would be nice to have a stronger count to better identify marginal weakness and strength, however, I think this game can be beaten on 1-6 spread. I would live to know where this game - I'm assuming outside if North America.

[BJGenius007]

Hi,
I had a losing streak and I need to lower my bet spread and I need your help
Assuming that I play a 6-deck with 0.21 house edge, counting with hi-low (or KO) and using 16 index plays, what is the minimum bet spread that is required to beat the game, even slightly?
Also assume that after one deck is dealt, I do not play negative counts and can wong-in back in positive counts all the time
My old bet spread was 1 to 10, but I should lower it, I will appreciate your ideas about this as I have not been able to find anything on Internet about this

Thank you

Assuming play all, S17, Late Surrender, DOA, DAS, 80 hands per hour, 75% penetration on 6D and 80% penetration on 8D.

Professional players will earn 1% of the total bet on 16 to 1 spread. For example, $25-$450 spread (average bet $60) will earn $48 per hour.

$60 x 80 x 1% = $48

Recreational players will earn 0.2% of the total bet on 5 to 1 spread. For example, $25-$125 spread (average bet $37.50) will earn about $6 per hour.

$37.50 x 80 x 0.2% = $6

IGT which is the biggest supplier to casinos has a consumer product called Masque Blackjack which is based on five to one spread playing 6D/8D. You can still buy the game on EBay. If you practice long enough using this software, you will learn the five to one spread is good enough to earn you some money or 0.2% of your total bet assuming you don't make mistakes. This also implies that casinos like recreational counters with modest spread. It is good for business.

[Freightman]

Assuming play all, S17, Late Surrender, DOA, DAS, 80 hands per hour, 75% penetration on 6D and 80% penetration on 8D.

Professional players will earn 1% of the total bet on 16 to 1 spread. For example, $25-$450 spread (average bet $60) will earn $48 per hour.

$60 x 80 x 1% = $48

Recreational players will earn 0.2% of the total bet on 5 to 1 spread. For example, $25-$125 spread (average bet $37.50) will earn about $6 per hour.

$37.50 x 80 x 0.2% = $6

IGT which is the biggest supplier to casinos has a consumer product called Masque Blackjack which is based on five to one spread playing 6D/8D. You can still buy the game on EBay. If you practice long enough using this software, you will learn the five to one spread is good enough to earn you some money or 0.2% of your total bet assuming you don't make mistakes. This also implies that casinos like recreational counters with modest spread. It is good for business.

Your ramping gas to be off to come up with those win rates. Also, you're missing the salient point of rules available to the OP, which among other things, includes a 3 card surrender.

[Ali D]

I still would have to sim this - those rules make up for a lot if shitty pen. It needs to be downgraded by the ENHC rules. The Wong p in/out factor is very inviting. That surrender on 3 cards is huge, depending in how it's constructed. My prior comment about never going 1-6 spread on 6deck shoe is predicated on a play all approach. It would be nice to have a stronger count to better identify marginal weakness and strength, however, I think this game can be beaten on 1-6 spread. I would live to know where this game - I'm assuming outside if North America.

Yes, this game is offered in eastern Europe and soviet countries.
here you can hit your hand and then surrender it if you don't like it. some casinos offer more than 3 card surrender but they all use CSM machines.
I use KO, but I also use complex indexes for betting and play according to depth and decks remained, that gives me 60% advantage of true counting. I have tested my betting alongside a hi-low count and they are almost the same, KO even works better in lower penetration according to Norm's simulations.
I plan to user a 1 to 6 spread to recover my bankroll and then switch to 1 to 10 again. I will let you know about my results

[Ali D]

Assuming play all, S17, Late Surrender, DOA, DAS, 80 hands per hour, 75% penetration on 6D and 80% penetration on 8D.

Professional players will earn 1% of the total bet on 16 to 1 spread. For example, $25-$450 spread (average bet $60) will earn $48 per hour.

$60 x 80 x 1% = $48

Recreational players will earn 0.2% of the total bet on 5 to 1 spread. For example, $25-$125 spread (average bet $37.50) will earn about $6 per hour.

$37.50 x 80 x 0.2% = $6

IGT which is the biggest supplier to casinos has a consumer product called Masque Blackjack which is based on five to one spread playing 6D/8D. You can still buy the game on EBay. If you practice long enough using this software, you will learn the five to one spread is good enough to earn you some money or 0.2% of your total bet assuming you don't make mistakes. This also implies that casinos like recreational counters with modest spread. It is good for business.

Thank you for the information.
I honestly think if blackjack was a game with a 0 house edge, casinos would still make money from not-counting players. I have seen many people surrender their 17 against dealer ten that I can barley watch other people's play anymore!

[Banker]

If it is early surrender, then 17 should surrender against 10 at +5 TC.

[Banker]

Just make sure they are not cheating. If they expose the cards prior to the game check them out. If not, count several shoes without playing. If they all end up positive, you should not play in this casino.