What limits more APs?

[Three]

I agree with Bosox. There are lots of ways top increase your edge or be more effective in the casino that would make any count stronger. The key to it is to realize that starter approach needs to be tweaked with experience. You can be quite successful without tweaking your count. Just know what to expect from your approach and be prepared for the extremes. Different people have different tolerances for swings. Your choice of complete approach (which includes many things that have nothing to do with your count) should fit your swing tolerance level. If not things will be stressful.

[Freightman]

I touched on this earlier but didn't have time to write a longer post. Romes said it too (partially).

But, of course everyone is in a different situation -- some people have families, some don't have the necessary bankroll, some don't have the time to learn/study/research, some have the emotional/tilt problems, they have a full time job....but....that's a dead obvious answer. None of that is necessarily specific to AP. If you're trying to build a business, go to school & get a degree, become a GM at chess...whatever it may be, those same things are going to limit you, albeit, some are worse limitations than others.


Things that are specific to limiting APs is.....well, it's not just ONE thing, it's all correlated together [unless you're really really good and can figure out stuff on your own]. You need a network of other APs. And not just "other people who are advantage players", but those who are taking the next step up. If you really want to excel, it doesn't come from reading articles online, reading books, posting or reading on forums, etc. -- it comes from doing the dirty work. Instead of reading online about how to hole-card, you should be out there looking at games and figuring out their weaknesses. Reading and doing research is good, but if you're only being spoon-fed information and not figuring stuff out on your own, you're always going to be a day late and a dollar short. This is why you need a strong network.

A little while back I learned about some incredible information. The way the information or technique was being used was basically the same in each opportunity that arose for that technique to be used. By me personally being able to use this information, I went out and found many games that were even more exploitable than the other games that were being played using this technique. Once I figured out how incredible this was, others that I trusted and I were playing it. The great thing is....the edge is huge with low variance, that is, under the proper conditions. Now that I had shared this information with others whom I trust, the same thing happened -- but in reverse. Now they went out and used this technique-with-a-twist and found more and more exploitable situations. I believe Eliot Jacobson and Michael Shackleford did some analyses on different promotions and both came to the same conclusion -- it's worth very little, and if you do it, it should be done more as a "for fun" AP thing to do, not something to make any serious money at.


Don't be scared to play -EV games due to scouting. If the only games you play are +EV, then that means it's already been figured out -- you're a day late and a dollar short. Some of the best plays I've ever been on (and am currently playing) have a HE as little as 3% to as large as 10% (but MY EDGE is somewhere between 5% to 15% typically, but sometimes up to 80-90% advantage). It doesn't matter what the house edge is on a game, what matters is what kind of edge you can get out of the game.

I agree with Bosox. There are lots of ways top increase your edge or be more effective in the casino that would make any count stronger. The key to it is to realize that starter approach needs to be tweaked with experience. You can be quite successful without tweaking your count. Just know what to expect from your approach and be prepared for the extremes. Different people have different tolerances for swings. Your choice of complete approach (which includes many things that have nothing to do with your count) should fit your swing tolerance level. If not things will be stressful.

In other words, superior judgement will give oomph to any system. Judgement improves with observation and experience.

[BoSox]

Tthree, and Greg 16394 sorry I quoted the wrong person Greg 16394 in post 14 where I should have taken the same quotes from post #8 from BJ Genius 007

[marriedputter]

What limits more APs?

It's hard.

[Freightman]

They're tons of low stakes games out there.

I should have specified "quality" low stakes games. They are in short supply.

[BJGenius007]

Tthree, and Greg 16394 sorry I quoted the wrong person Greg 16394 in post 14 where I should have taken the same quotes from post #8 from BJ Genius 007

BJGenius007 is one word, not three words.

[moo321]

Lack of discipline, far and away, is the factor.

Don't study. Don't practice. Don't play with discipline. Play into obvious heat. etc.

[MJGolf]

OK; I just re-read this thread. Lots of good stuff and thoughts here. Have a question I would like your opinion on if willing to share.

What about limits on times played at the same houses/casinos?

Let me flesh this out a bit. We are very limited as to playable games. As Freight said above, there are good low limit games..........but they are very, very limited as to tables. We might have two tables at one casino. Four at another. Six at another..........but that's about it. And then you are limited as to times to play since there are only "limited" times when antes (or rakes) are not charged. The times there are NO antes, tend to be the off hours or weekdays (and while less crowded) also can find MORE surveillance by the pit, just because they need something to do..........LOL. Not necessarily "initially" heat.........but if they continue to watch, I would say that it can develop to that. You find yourself going to the same places at similar times because THOSE are the only PLAYABLE games and TIMES. What becomes TOO OFTEN?

So, the obvious answers are: "it depends" and "don't overstay your welcome". But just HOW do you guys determine this? I want to play more often. But if I continue to go to the same places over and over again on relatively the same times............how will I know it's TOO MANY? Is daily too much (rotating of course)? Is weekly too much?

Yes, I know about playing different shifts; playing different houses; "hopefully" different supervisors.........but there are ONLY so many to play here. (And yes, travel to play is an option and undertaken). But since this is an AVOCATION and not a PROFESSION; though relatively successful, I would like to continue playing in my "home" area.

Any suggestions from you more seasoned players?

[Romes]

If you find yourself limited to 4 tables at a casino, in the context you gave, then you're not limited to those 4 tables... Your bankroll is limited to those 4 tables. Save up, study more, practice more, then when your bankroll can hit the next level you'll find a lot more tables available.

On the limited games idea... Other games are quite beatable as well, but they may have a lower EV and higher RoR. It all depends on what risk your bankroll can handle. Most people get in to counting and set up their bankroll to play at a certain level with the idea that they're going to find 6D S17 85%+ PEN... Instead, when learning and especially with the deteriorating games in the world today we should set up our bankroll to be able to handle these 8D H17 (.68% HE) games. While not ideal, these can still be used to a) learn, b) grow your bankroll, etc, etc. Then once you've grown it enough to get to the next level you'll find that good RULES aren't hard to find, but good games (low heat) are.

As far as your "home area" problem... You either need to get to a higher level (explained above) so you don't have to worry about the first few issues, or you need to find a better area you're more comfortable with. If you're in CA and have these ante crap games, perhaps instead of going once a week you organize a driving trip to LV or somewhere else where you know you have a ton of good games. If you normally put in 5 hours per week then put in 20 on this trip once per month. i.e. Find the better places/games and play them. You're only as limited as you chose to be. Now, if at the end of the day you say "Well I want good games near me that won't burn out!" then I'll ask you to pass me the joint so I can get on your level ;-).

[Sandybestdog]

The problem I've run into the most is just not being able to find enough opportunities. I guess you can always count cards but other than that you have to find opportunities. I just haven't been able to find that many. Perhaps I'm not looking correctly or not in the right location. I have a job so can only get out once or twice a week. I think part of it is the amount of games to choose from. Playing blackjack without counting or holecarding, 4 card poker, high card flush, baccarat, roulette, pai gow, Caribbean Stud, War, video poker - I don't know of any way to beat these games straight up. Maybe I'm missing something. That just leaves a few left to choose from. Often those other games are not even at a lot of casino's or only have one table or only run at peak times.

[Three]

All this varies by casino and region. Since you mentioned antes we all know the region you are asking about. Me telling you what works in another region may be bad advice for you. Hopefully you will get some answers from people that mention they are familiar with the area.

[Romes]

The problem I've run into the most is just not being able to find enough opportunities. I guess you can always count cards but other than that you have to find opportunities. I just haven't been able to find that many. Perhaps I'm not looking correctly or not in the right location. I have a job so can only get out once or twice a week. I think part of it is the amount of games to choose from. Playing blackjack without counting or holecarding, 4 card poker, high card flush, baccarat, roulette, pai gow, Caribbean Stud, War, video poker - I don't know of any way to beat these games straight up. Maybe I'm missing something. That just leaves a few left to choose from. Often those other games are not even at a lot of casino's or only have one table or only run at peak times.

This is one of the original pit falls I mentioned on page 1. There's more to study, and/or you don't know just how much more is out there to study. There's a lot more than blackjack in 'nearly' every casino... a lot more. For starters, just walk by every single game and think "how could I beat this?" From there you'll form questions, which you can take to the internet and search for answers via dozens of forums, pointers to books, etc. For those whom really want to learn, they'll find the information; I can personally speak to that.

[MJGolf]

Romes, may have missed my point a bit. Though I appreciate the advice about checking out other games. And trying to learn them, too. The issue is NOT bankroll.........the issue, like Sandybestdog stated likewise is PAUCITY of games/tables period!! It's not that there are four tables I can play at..........there are ONLY 4 tables. Table limits are not the issue it's lack of tables in number.

T-three knows where we are........but plays in a different area. I understand traveling to other towns/places/gambling areas when able. But what I'm asking the group is..........besides practicing and waiting to go to other areas........do they have suggestions on how often I should play (or not play) the local houses. I don't want to destroy what "limited" opportunities I have here and I play at a lower level now than I would traveling JUST so I continue to fly under the radar (hopefully). But if you continue to play a "winning" game...........no matter how small they are..........will that catch up to you?