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[Romes]

Zee, there's a lot of options you have. KJ always promotes a lot of "free cover" as I like to call it... Shorter sessions, smaller buy-in's, rotate different shifts/stores, etc. Your betting level will really determine which steps you need to take. Do you mind sharing what your spread normally is? If you're $10-$100, there's a lot less you need to worry about than if you're $100-$500.

Another idea, that I at least think is great, if your BR can withstand... go UP in limit but then REDUCE your spread. So instead of spreading $10-$120 (1:12), play $25-$150 (1:6) on shoe games. You'll find doing this (if you do it right) usually up's your EV and with the dampened spread should bring less heat. With that, I'd also recommend NOT playing single/DD games if you plan to play these places for years and years.

You can then use this extra EV for "cover with a cost" if you so choose... Such as a complete "play through" approach, or something. This way you can also use your card, which I would "probably" recommend you do. I've used a card at my local joint for about 5 years now. Of course I'm much more "friendly" with my action there since it is my local joint and I don't want to burn it, but I get a lot of good comps from them for here and especially for Vegas/other places. If you get picked off after years and years of card play + comps... Then take some time off and you can probably start playing without a card (or with someone else's ).

[ZeeBabar]

Zee, there's a lot of options you have. KJ always promotes a lot of "free cover" as I like to call it... Shorter sessions, smaller buy-in's, rotate different shifts/stores, etc. Your betting level will really determine which steps you need to take. Do you mind sharing what your spread normally is? If you're $10-$100, there's a lot less you need to worry about than if you're $100-$500.

Another idea, that I at least think is great, if your BR can withstand... go UP in limit but then REDUCE your spread. So instead of spreading $10-$120 (1:12), play $25-$150 (1:6) on shoe games. You'll find doing this (if you do it right) usually up's your EV and with the dampened spread should bring less heat. With that, I'd also recommend NOT playing single/DD games if you plan to play these places for years and years.


You can then use this extra EV for "cover with a cost" if you so choose... Such as a complete "play through" approach, or something. This way you can also use your card, which I would "probably" recommend you do. I've used a card at my local joint for about 5 years now. Of course I'm much more "friendly" with my action there since it is my local joint and I don't want to burn it, but I get a lot of good comps from them for here and especially for Vegas/other places. If you get picked off after years and years of card play + comps... Then take some time off and you can probably start playing without a card (or with someone else's ).

Thanks, Romes. My bet Spread in the DD games is 1-7 or $25 to $175 (sometimes $200). I am still struggling with 6 deck games as far as spreads go so I play the $10 minimum tables, playing 2 hands to start, staying with 2 hands when RC is positive, down to 1 hand when RC is negative and going from 2 hands of $10 at neutral counts to 2 hands of $40 at TC+2 and move up to a max bet of 2x$90.

I like KJ's approach but with just one local casino and about 3 playable casinos in the big city 2-3 hours away, and other family/work issues, I cannot vary stores too much or go at different shifts. Here I play with a card which I have since I was still new and so they have me pegged as a ploppy or a poor counter and don't pay much attention (a couple of pit folks are looking at me differently of late). I either need to move to a city with lots of options (and how many have those?) or learn to campuflage my play and act.

[Three]

It helps to have some other AP plays in your arsenal to look for opportunity in while the playing conditions are not to your liking.

[Zach Black]

Is anyone really anonymous? If you play a store weekly as a refusal the wins and losses are still tracked.

At some point you will exceed the casino's lifetime win or daily win tolerance and get the boot. Rat holing when others at the table are playing at the same stakes, is one way I know to lower this win and increase losses.

Knowing what the casino's tolerance level is the difficult thing without crossing the line or leaving money on the table.

[BoSox]

Another idea, that I at least think is great, if your BR can withstand... go UP in limit but then REDUCE your spread. So instead of spreading $10-$120 (1:12), play $25-$150 (1:6) on shoe games. You'll find doing this (if you do it right) usually up's your EV and with the dampened spread should bring less heat.

Where Zee mainly plays he does not have the opportunity to do it the right way, the casino has only 3 tables that are almost always full. I do not know if he checked out conditions on other days and shifts. However, even if he did find a slower time, with more seats open, it would look ridiculous continually bouncing among 3 tables. Therefore, if he is going to continue to play there he is going to need a big spread playing 2 hands to compensate for his play all style, of course, and all the volatility that comes with it.

[Romes]

I'm speaking more to him saying he's thinking/planning on moving to the city with more options, and what I would assume is bigger casinos (than a 3 BJ table casino). You're in a tough spot when all you have to play is 1 casino with 3 tables.

If you do move and have more options (when retired so you also have more time) and you're looking for longevity (which it appears is your main concern), then I would suggest the following:
- Avoid SD/DD games.
- Use a players card.
- Spread $25-$125, or $150 if you feel this is well under the "radar" for this shop (numbers below).
- Try to only play a particular table/pit for an hour or so. I.E. shorter sessions
- Try to play different shifts at different stores on different days. If you actually have a few options (even 2-3) this shouldn't be "too terribly" hard to do.
- Buy in for only $200 or so. If you need more, pull more money out. The pit will dismiss you for buying in so low (especially if they're $25 tables) and love to see that you're a gambler willing to "chase your losses" if you keep re-buying. Plus if you re-buy 3 times, a big cash out isn't a big deal either... Thus, buy in 3 times for $200, rathole a few hundred, and cash out for $800. You'll be well under the radar and profitable.

You said on shoes you spread $10-$90 x 2 hands. So your "total" is $180 and your "big bet" is actually about $120 (since you're spread across 2 hands). So let's run some numbers... I'm taking a "generic" decent 6D game (.4% HE).

With a spread of $10-$120 (1:12) your EV at a .4% HE game is about $17.81/hour (assuming 100 hands per hour). Wong out at TC <= -2.
With a spread of $25-$125 (1:5) your EV at a .4% HE game is about $17.32/hour (assuming 100 hands per hour. Wong out at TC <= -2.

If you find it's well within the tolerance of these places to play $25-$150, then your EV goes to $20.26/hour. Wonging out of shoes as opposed to SD/DD is a lot easier too.

On shoe games at any "okay sized" casino you shouldn't even get looked at for $25-$200, let alone $25-$150. Again note though, this is SHOE games. So by adjusting your spread to $25-$150 you're UPPING your EV, while LOWERING your spread which should bring you a ton less heat, and hopefully give you the longevity you're looking for.

[ZeeBabar]

Romes, I think most will not play using a card or spreading $25-$150 on shoe games.

because I am not yet comfortable playing 6 deck games and spreading 1-12 (or more as some suggest). I play the 10 game, spreading to 2x$90 and thus a bigger spread than if I spread $25-$150.

[Three]

I think most will not play using a card or spreading $25-$150 on shoe games.

That is a 1-6 spread. Why wouldn't you use a card? It looks more suspicious to forego the comps this would generate than to use a card. It isn't like you won't have a history in a local casino if you don't use a card. The difference is your history has your card info associated with it. Believe me, if they want your name etc they already have it whether you gave it to them or not. The only real difference is what happens if you are backed off and they are aggressive at entering into data bases and there is not much difference. If they are you might not want to play there to begin with.

[Romes]

Romes, I think most will not play using a card or spreading $25-$150 on shoe games.

because I am not yet comfortable playing 6 deck games and spreading 1-12 (or more as some suggest). I play the 10 game, spreading to 2x$90 and thus a bigger spread than if I spread $25-$150.

Of course it's what you're comfortable with and bankroll can withstand at the end of the day. As Tthree also noted it's only a 1:6 spread, where as on a shoe games normally you want to attack those with 1:12 or more. The idea here is to support your request for longevity. If I were training someone to play, I'd have them spread a lot more at that game. Given your current spread/EV, I was simply showing you that you could make as much (or more) with similar RoR, and get comped as a $25 player while using your card. The game plan specific to you has the same (or better) EV, but is built around longevity, as per request.

I also agree if they want your name, they'll follow you to your car (or watch on camera) and run your licence plate. That or other "mostly illegal" ways they go about it. Plus, if you're playing there often, you'll actually get pretty good comps to add to your EV. You'd be surprised =).

[Freightman]

[QUOTE=Romes;180791]Zee, there's a lot of options you have. KJ always promotes a lot of "free cover" as I like to call it... Sho

Another idea, that I at least think is great, if your BR can withstand... go UP in limit but then REDUCE your spread. So instead of spreading $10-$120 (1:12), play $25-$150 (1:6) on shoe games.


You'll need a combination of deep pen, and reduce further that min bet, in order to increase your spread. Otherwise your spinning your wheels.

[Romes]

Penetration is important to any game / spread. I was taking the assumption the OP was getting "good enough" penetration to play the game. Sure, a spread can be modified after knowing if a place has good/bad PEN, but as of now we do not know so let's assume the "average." I was showing the OP how he could modify his spread within his BR requirements to make the same EV (given 'average' PEN) and to lower his actual spread for longevity.

Pretty sure the math I showed on the last page shows you're not spinning your wheels if you up your unit size but lower your spread. The EV's are near equal (because that's what I wanted) but the added affect is the OP would now be playing shoe games with a 1:6 spread instead of a 1:12 spread... Thus attracting less attention/heat and increasing longevity.

[RS]

The major down-side, IMO, of going from $10-120 to $25-150 is the N0 and variance. I haven't looked them up nor done the sims, but you gotta have some brutal swings going $25-150 (compared to your hourly EV). Making less than a minimum bet per hour sounds awful. That isn't to say it's an awful idea....depends on the individual, their BR, and their risk tolerance.

[BoSox]

Thanks, Romes. My bet Spread in the DD games is 1-7 or $25 to $175 (sometimes $200). I am still struggling with 6 deck games as far as spreads go so I play the $10 minimum tables, playing 2 hands to start, staying with 2 hands when RC is positive, down to 1 hand when RC is negative and going from 2 hands of $10 at neutral counts to 2 hands of $40 at TC+2 and move up to a max bet of 2x$90.

ZeeBabar, I assume (with the poor game rules you are playing) you are still at two hands of $10 each at tc of +1 if not you should be. Now that two hand bet of $40 each you make at tc of +2, I believe is too excessive considering the house rules. I think you should be betting no more than two hands of $20.or $25.each at that count.

I like KJ's approach but with just one local casino and about 3 playable casinos in the big city 2-3 hours away, and other family/work issues, I cannot vary stores too much or go at different shifts. Here I play with a card which I have since I was still new and so they have me pegged as a ploppy or a poor counter and don't pay much attention (a couple of pit folks are looking at me differently of late). I either need to move to a city with lots of options (and how many have those?) or learn to campuflage my play and act.

You need to take the attitude that you are playing in a dump, and (if you MUST play there) you are going to do whatever is necessary to get a decent edge and stop spinning your wheels. Stop worrying about someone could be watching you, and your feeling of a need for camouflage in your play, all for a SHIT HOLE PLACE like that. What is your objective to play or win money? If you are afraid to be backed off from a dump, you will always be chasing nickles and dimes, and it wont matter where you move to.