What to do in this situation?

[BJprive]

I've made a similar thread but didn't really get any clear answers the first time so thought i'd ask again.

Situation 1:
1) you're backed off and you go to cash in your chips and the cashier/cashier manager is refusing to cash in your chips without identification. You're in the middle of nowhere and it will be a complete hassle to resell or cash in another time. Do u call gaming? police? what do u do?

situation 2:
2) you're backroomed/detained inside the casino and they're making you sign a trespassing citation/warning. Police is present but they're not allowing you to leave unless u sign the document. If you don't sign the document Police is threatening to take you to jail. Most likely a court date would be issued. Again u are in the middle of nowhere and likely facing a night in jail. You are completely alone. What do u do?

situation 3:
3) Cop shows up to the casino after you're backed off and asks for ID. you refuse and he asks for your name. Knowing the Cop may give the casino your name, what do u do?

[BJprive]

Well, i've looked up the laws and spoken to a few people about them but i still have questions.

Yes it is unlawful detainment, but the police won't care or they'll make up some bullshit charge like obstructing justice or public disturbance in order to detain you legally. Who is Frank in this situation?

Yes u can ask the police what law you have broken, but they wont give u a direct answer. It is my understanding you do not have to give any information to the police unless u are detained/arrested... in which case u are required to give your name/address/date of birth. In places that are regulated though, u might be required to give more info.

My problem is that the police may pass on your information to the casino and thus griffin/OSN without knowing fully what type of damage they're doing.

Anybody have any thoughts on just sitting there silent?? instead of even talking, that way they cant charge u with anything?

[ZenMaster_Flash]

All casinos cash chips by mail. They have no choice. You can take the chips home.

If you box up the chips and mail them to the attention of the Head Cashier, signature

required, certified mail, return receipt requested, they'll mail you a check for the sum.

A (current) student of mine was 86'd from an island casino after winning > $45,000 in one day.

They said that they will do a wire transfer of the funds. Being in a foreign country he had no recourse.

It took over a week, but the money DID appear, in full, in his bank account.

[MJGolf]

All casinos cash chips by mail. They have no choice. You can take the chips home.

If you box up the chips and mail them to the attention of the Head Cashier, signature

required, certified mail, return receipt requested, they'll mail you a check for the sum.

A (current) student of mine was 86'd from an island casino after winning > $45,000 in one day.

They said that they will do a wire transfer of the funds. Being in a foreign country he had no recourse.

It took over a week, but the money DID appear, in full, in his bank account.

Interesting option..........have done this with sportsbook tickets but not chips. Did your student not only send certified mail, but did he INSURE the value of the chips, in case they WERE "lost" or misplaced? Might reduce EV but also might be worth the cost of insurance.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

"Did your student not only send certified mail, but did he INSURE the value of the chips, in case they WERE "lost" or misplaced? Might reduce EV but also might be worth the cost of insurance."

He paid not a cent for mailing / insuring.

First Class Mail, when certified, etc. is insured for a small fee.

Certified letters are treated like the Hope Diamond.

"special" mail is never lost. The USPS is proud of that.

In fact the Hope Diamond was once sent through the

mail by ordinary 1st Class Mail. You misread my post

about my student. He was given no choice, but to leave

the all of his winnings in the casino and return to the states.

The casino is owned by a particularly nasty outfit.

At the time, I was VERY pessimistic about the possible outcome.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

First Class Mail, when certified, etc. is insured for a small fee.

Certified letters are treated like the Hope Diamond.

"special" mail is never lost. The USPS is proud of that.

In fact the Hope Diamond was once sent through the

mail by ordinary 1st Class Mail. You misread my post

about my student. He was given no choice, but to leave

the all of his winnings in the casino and return to the states.

MY remarks above are absolutely correct, but I can only comment on the U.S.A.

Like Arnold Snyder, I too was a postal employee (once upon a time).

[Freightman]

MY remarks above are absolutely correct, but I can only comment on the U.S.A.

Like Arnold Snyder, I too was a postal employee (once upon a time).

Let me assure you that 100% on time delivery without damage is a fallacy. Items of absolutely extraordinary value of which are in fact a high value theft item should be hand carried (on board courier or security)

[Frank Galvin]

I am indeed a licensed attorney, but the only casinos in my state are native american owned and operated. So state law does not typically govern, but federal law, and tribal law applicable.

Situation 1 calls for non-adversarial approach. If you are not from there, defuse situation, comply, get your money, and safely depart.

Situation 2 facts make me wonder how you ended up backroomed or detained. In most, if not all situations, casino staff would have little to no legal right to detain you, and neither casino nor police would have any valid legal authority to compel you to sign anything. If for some strange reason this happens, you should have already placed a call to your attorney. Your tolerance for police misuse of authority and possible false arrest, is subject to your willingness to assert your rights, and endure being subjected to criminal legal process (from arrest, detainment, bail/bond hearing, and subsequent hearing/trial).

Situation 3 gives me pause. In my state, and likely most, police do not have the authority to compel you to produce identification unless they have probable cause to suspect that you already have or are in the process of committing a crime (obviously not card counting, and realizing that emergency conditions might result in local prosecutor refusing to charge police misconduct). Once again, your tolerance for ramifications of potential police misconduct controls.

Note that the preceding comments might vary if the local police have gaming commission jurisdictional authority. Also, standard disclaimer: Laws in different states might be different, including the application of various applicable gaming regulatory provisions. Accordingly, you should promptly seek legal advice from counsel licensed to practice in the jurusdiction where you are backroomed, detained or confronted by casino staff and/or police officers.

All of the preceding are offered without comments on your civil legal rights and possible civil claims that might be validly asserted against the casino, its individual staff, the state/county for misconduct by police officers, and/or against the individual officers for acting in an ultra vires fashion (beyond their authority).

[BoSox]

I am indeed a licensed attorney, but the only casinos in my state are native american owned and operated. So state law does not typically govern, but federal law, and tribal law applicable.

Frank, I am sure that if you are visiting those native american casinos in your state you are already well aware of the federal laws, and the applicable tribal laws. What recommendation could you give to any players "at all levels of play" that do frequent native american casinos, who are more than likely ill-informed of their legal rights? Thank you in advance for any information you may provide.

[BJprive]

Thank you all for the great responses.... they were all very helpful.

@moses- the one interesting point u brought up was the safety issue... Yes i can see how carrying large sums of money can attract criminals. Although i do think this case is unlikely overall. What do u think? You can always ask security for an escort to your car? Intention is not to make enemies just to assert your rights and not be violated.


@zenmaster_flash - How does this work exactly? you have 45k in chips and u just mail them out? What happens if they get lost in the mail? Any chance the casino pockets the chips and says they did not receive them? Will have to experiment with this for sure. More info on this subject would definitely interest me if u have anything on it.

@Frank- Your tolerance for police misuse of authority and possible false arrest, is subject to your willingness to assert your rights, and endure being subjected to criminal legal process (from arrest, detainment, bail/bond hearing, and subsequent hearing/trial)
This does sum it up for me. For most people i think when confronted with the option of signing a form or be subjected to arrest/criminal legal process most would choose the former... but for me i think i may choose the latter. Any suggestions what you would personally do if u were in this situation? Bite the bullet and fight it in court?

Personally I dont mind spending the night in jail and getting arrested, however i wonder if that would change any outcome or is that just making the inevitable of getting in the griffin/OSN book a harder process on myself? Even so would what financial settlement would i even be able to get for being put through a night of hell/police misconduct if little to no damage was done? probably very little i imagine if anything.?

[NotEnoughHeat]

@zenmaster_flash - How does this work exactly? you have 45k in chips and u just mail them out? What happens if they get lost in the mail? Any chance the casino pockets the chips and says they did not receive them? Will have to experiment with this for sure. More info on this subject would definitely interest me if u have anything on it.

I'm not Zen, but in case you're still unclear I'll answer this. Most countries usually have some form of certified mail where you pay a larger fee than standard postage but you package is tracked and required signature on release. First, more than likely it won't get lost in the mail because of the extra care given. If it does, it's insured anyways. If the casino pockets the chips and says that they didn't receive it then you'll have a pretty easy time in court when you produce the receipt of the signature or have the mailing company present the original signature itself.

[Freightman]

I'm not Zen, but in case you're still unclear I'll answer this. Most countries usually have some form of certified mail where you pay a larger fee than standard postage but you package is tracked and required signature on release. First, more than likely it won't get lost in the mail because of the extra care given. If it does, it's insured anyways. If the casino pockets the chips and says that they didn't receive it then you'll have a pretty easy time in court when you produce the receipt of the signature or have the mailing company present the original signature itself.

I've been somewhat under the weather and inactive, though I just plotted this post.

3 comments
1. So what if you have clear proof of sending a package. Do you have clear proof of what you sent. Let me absolutely assure you that even under the most generous of circumstances, that you will be hassled to the nth degree on a claim settlement, refused payment, and refused again upon review.
2. If shipment is international in nature, customs documents need be prepared to accompany the shipment. Now, the question as to wheather casino chips are a negotiable instrument or not is really a matter of interpretation - in other words, laws entering Canada and/ or the United States are very similar, however, how it interprets, and to the degree, is often subject to the individual customs agent. Opens up a whole new can of worms.
3. Insurance by shipping companies is often refused by shipping companies, when item shipped contains negotiable securities.

[NotEnoughHeat]

I've been somewhat under the weather and inactive, though I just plotted this post.

3 comments
1. So what if you have clear proof of sending a package. Do you have clear proof of what you sent. Let me absolutely assure you that even under the most generous of circumstances, that you will be hassled to the nth degree on a claim settlement, refused payment, and refused again upon review.
2. If shipment is international in nature, customs documents need be prepared to accompany the shipment. Now, the question as to wheather casino chips are a negotiable instrument or not is really a matter of interpretation - in other words, laws entering Canada and/ or the United States are very similar, however, how it interprets, and to the degree, is often subject to the individual customs agent. Opens up a whole new can of worms.
3. Insurance by shipping companies is often refused by shipping companies, when item shipped contains negotiable securities.

I have never personally used certified mail so I only have a rough idea of what it offers. Perhaps ZenMaster_Flash could explain how the insurance works. Is it just blind $X of reimbursement no matter the contents, or is there a way to get proof of the contents for insurance purposes?

Anyways, I would like to hear more about the potential pro's and con's of cashing chips via mail. It'd be great to know as much as possible so I can decide how much of an option it is if the need ever arises.