Possible House Goon on the Table?

[mickeymouse]

In the last few weeks, there seems to be a mild-mannered elderly gentleman playing every night at my local venue, who plays with the following protocol:

- splits any pair of 10s, against any dealer upcard
- hit on a 17, only against a dealer ten
- never double on an 11 but only hit under any circumstances
- surrender any 12-16 against a ten or an ace
- hit a 16 against an 2-6
- buys insurance against a dealer ace only on a stiff hand (12-16) which he will surrender as well

He never deviates from the above strategy.

He will sometimes ask for advice, but will never follow through on it.

In the ~12 sessions I have played with him on my table, I have lost every single one of them.

Today, in Pontoon (SP21), he hit on a super high count when he had 15 against a 3. He busted with a 7 of spades. Unfortunately, I was dealt two 7 of spades next to play, denying me a triple bonus. I was playing two boxes and my second box became a double and I lost the lot.

I strongly suspect this person is a GOON employed by the HOUSE. I cannot fathom any rational player playing with their own money playing like that, certainly I have not seen any other ploppy, no matter how bad, play like that.

My gut feeling is that the best move is to ignore him completely.

Your thoughts?

[Norm]

I cannot fathom any rational player playing with their own money playing like that

Gamblers are not rational. In Nevada, shills play fixed strategies -- but not that bad. You can ask if there is a shill at the table. But, this guy doesn't sound like one.

[ZeeBabar]

Gamblers are not rational. In Nevada, shills play fixed strategies -- but not that bad. You can ask if there is a shill at the table. But, this guy doesn't sound like one.

Norm, whatever happened to the idea that how others play their hand has no impact on your own. There have been many cases where I, sitting on 3rd base, would hit a 12 against a 6 in negative situations. When I bust by taking a Ten, the Ploppies groan and then when the dealer has a small card where he would have made a hand, they thank me for saving the table!!!

[Norm]

Norm, whatever happened to the idea that how others play their hand has no impact on your own.

Still exists. Other players have no to minimal impact in most situations, other than slowing down the game.

[ZeeBabar]

Hope the Disney character reads your response.

[Ryemo]

Mickeymouse,

You understand that the way others choose to play their hands has zero effect on your long term results, right?

[Wino]

How much does a shill get paid? Are there job adds for shills? Seems strange that a Corporation would want to spend any ounce of extra money.

[ZeeBabar]

How much does a shill get paid? Are there job adds for shills? Seems strange that a Corporation would want to spend any ounce of extra money.

This was probably was not a shill. Often, ploppies are reluctant to sit at an empty table and a shill can get a table started. Often, while there may be several tables open, Ploppies will come join you when you are playing a heads up game. To get people on tables, a shill can help.

Another is to distract a counter. Get a young lady to play and ask you for advice and it affects your game. Another might be to count along with you and see if you are counting.

there could be others.

[BJGenius007]

His actions did not add house advantage. Why do you care how he played?

Any ploppy actions may help or harm your hands. Eventually it evens out.

[mickeymouse]

In fact, some would theorize that when you are playing with one ploppy towards the shoe at a very high count, you WANT that ploppy to erroneously stand, so that he/she eats up less cards.

Does that have any logic?

[davethebuilder]

Gamblers are not rational. In Nevada, shills play fixed strategies -- but not that bad. You can ask if there is a shill at the table. But, this guy doesn't sound like one.

I don't know of any Australian casino that employs shills which I understand are usually used in poker rooms. As there are only around a dozen casinos in the whole country most games and tables see plenty of action so there is no need. However, they do use their employees in another way if they suspect advantage play and in my experience the first thing that happens is a high speed dealer is assigned to the table. He/she will not talk to you. The next step is once a vacant seat next to you becomes available an out of uniform casino employee will sit down and pretend to be a patron and talk your ear off for 45 minutes to distract you. This old man just sounds like a real patron who is enjoying himself and in the long run it does not matter how he plays...what matters is your actions. Please remember this...95% of casino patrons do not know how to play Australian Pontoon properly. It is more complicated than Blackjack and you will see bad play all the time, just ignore it and concentrate on your own game. Also, I am not convinced that surveillance knows all that much either.

[mickeymouse]

Of course it all evens out in the end. But I find it hard to fathom how one can enjoy himself playing SO poorly. He loses his entire supposed bankroll every evening. I wonder if it is the house money and not his.

None of the above "countermeasures" have been applied to me in the 170+ sessions I have played. As for a high speed dealer all that does is get me through more hands an hour.

I have not been ahead in any FIVE-MINUTE PERIOD that he has sat on my table.

[davethebuilder]

He might be lonely and so he goes to the casino for social reasons even if he does not know how to play. I see this a lot especially among Asian players. Its his money so unless he asks you for advice just let it slide. He is just as likely to help you as hurt you in the long run and you are free to change tables at any time. If you can handle very fast dealers, have no heat and are ahead in the long run then good for you.