Vegas trip results

[Cardguy]

Many of you provided helpful advice for my recent business trip to Vegas. Just thought I'd give you feedback on how it went. I'm a relative newbie and have only played red chips in the past (HiLo). Nevertheless, I've put in the hours on CVBJ and I'm confident I play a winning game so I was willing to up my stakes a little bit while in Vegas. This was also going to be my opportunity to prove to my wife and friends that counting cards really does work!
Unfortunately, I didn't get to play much at all. In meetings all day and then dinner with the wife each night. Also, the hotel I was staying at had crappy BJ rules so I had to travel. Only managed to squeeze in two one hour sessions at a couple of MGM properties that were offering 6D, S17, RSA, LS with 75% pen with $25 minimum.
When I walk in, I can only find two tables with these rules and both were completely empty. This made me think two things: I can't really Wong in and out (bad), but I can play a ton of hands quickly head to head with the dealer (good). Anyway, I buy in for $600 and start fine. In the first shoe the count stays near zero but then starts to tank dropping to -2. I'm down about $125 and I've lost a couple of hands in a row so I tell the dealer she's too good for me and leave to play craps for a few minutes waiting for the opportunity to start a new shoe. I actually got lucky at the craps table and won my $150 back. I then head back to the BJ table with a new determination and more importantly, a new shoe. About 1/2 way through this shoe the TC goes up to +4 and stays there. I keep pushing out my max bet ($200) hand after hand and the count stays right there. Terrific, right? WRONG! I lost $1,400 in about 35 minutes which was all I brought with me to the casino that day. The only good thing was I'm sure I looked like a gambler chasing his losses as I continued to dig into my pockets for more money because the count was so good. I got stiff hand after stiff hand while the dealer got all the 20s and BJs. Every time I doubled or split, I lost. I left with my tail between my legs and a completely empty wallet. The dealer clearly felt sorry for me telling me I should play at tables with other players so I don't lose so fast.
The next day I manage to find one more hour to play at a different casino but with the same rules. Again I play for about an hour, mostly head to head but with 1 or 2 other players part of the time. During this session, the count never goes above +1. In fact, I think I only bet above the $25 minimum 4 times when I bet $50. Despite the poor count, I won a lot more hands than the previous day. Ended up ahead $262 for the session but still way down overall. And that's how I had to leave.
Bottom line - played a total of 2 hours, lost over $1,100 and convinced my wife and friends that I'm a degenerate gambler and this "counting stuff" is just hocus pocus. Not exactly the trip I was hoping for .
The only consolation? La Reve at the Wynn was unbelievable!

[Daliman]

Many of you provided helpful advice for my recent business trip to Vegas. Just thought I'd give you feedback on how it went. I'm a relative newbie and have only played red chips in the past (HiLo). Nevertheless, I've put in the hours on CVBJ and I'm confident I play a winning game so I was willing to up my stakes a little bit while in Vegas. This was also going to be my opportunity to prove to my wife and friends that counting cards really does work!
Unfortunately, I didn't get to play much at all. In meetings all day and then dinner with the wife each night. Also, the hotel I was staying at had crappy BJ rules so I had to travel. Only managed to squeeze in two one hour sessions at a couple of MGM properties that were offering 6D, S17, RSA, LS with 75% pen with $25 minimum.
When I walk in, I can only find two tables with these rules and both were completely empty. This made me think two things: I can't really Wong in and out (bad), but I can play a ton of hands quickly head to head with the dealer (good). Anyway, I buy in for $600 and start fine. In the first shoe the count stays near zero but then starts to tank dropping to -2. I'm down about $125 and I've lost a couple of hands in a row so I tell the dealer she's too good for me and leave to play craps for a few minutes waiting for the opportunity to start a new shoe. I actually got lucky at the craps table and won my $150 back. I then head back to the BJ table with a new determination and more importantly, a new shoe. About 1/2 way through this shoe the TC goes up to +4 and stays there. I keep pushing out my max bet ($200) hand after hand and the count stays right there. Terrific, right? WRONG! I lost $1,400 in about 35 minutes which was all I brought with me to the casino that day. The only good thing was I'm sure I looked like a gambler chasing his losses as I continued to dig into my pockets for more money because the count was so good. I got stiff hand after stiff hand while the dealer got all the 20s and BJs. Every time I doubled or split, I lost. I left with my tail between my legs and a completely empty wallet. The dealer clearly felt sorry for me telling me I should play at tables with other players so I don't lose so fast.
The next day I manage to find one more hour to play at a different casino but with the same rules. Again I play for about an hour, mostly head to head but with 1 or 2 other players part of the time. During this session, the count never goes above +1. In fact, I think I only bet above the $25 minimum 4 times when I bet $50. Despite the poor count, I won a lot more hands than the previous day. Ended up ahead $262 for the session but still way down overall. And that's how I had to leave.
Bottom line - played a total of 2 hours, lost over $1,100 and convinced my wife and friends that I'm a degenerate gambler and this "counting stuff" is just hocus pocus. Not exactly the trip I was hoping for .
The only consolation? La Reve at the Wynn was unbelievable!

First off, 1-8 spread really isn't good enough to gain a decent edge, but also, it's not terrific when the count is high and stays there, because you're basically just playing in a neutral deck in retrospect when that happens. It's terrific when a count goes high then drops, because that means the surplus tens and aces are actually coming out.

[Ryemo]

Cardguy,

1) Next time, you'll want to bring more cash with you to the tables. I play green chips and never sit at the tables with anything less than $5K to $7K. You just never know what negative variance you will experience in a short period of time.

2) As mentioned above, I believe an 8:1 spread isn't ideal for a 6D shoe. Perfectly fine for a decent DD game, but I never tackle any 6D with less than a 20:1 spread, unless I know the casino is sweaty.

3) Don't worry about proving anything to your wife just yet. Just re-invest all your BJ winnings back into your bankroll and once she sees how much you accumulate over many hours of play, she'll start to get it. Hopefully she understands that there is absolutely no guarantee of winning with card counting in the short term. This game is purely long term. And as for convincing friends... I've personally given up on that.

Better luck next time!

[Freightman]

Many of you provided helpful advice for my recent business trip to Vegas. Just thought I'd give you feedback on how it went. I'm a relative newbie and have only played red chips in the past (HiLo). Nevertheless, I've put in the hours on CVBJ and I'm confident I play a winning game so I was willing to up my stakes a little bit while in Vegas. This was also going to be my opportunity to prove to my wife and friends that counting cards really does work!
Unfortunately, I didn't get to play much at all. In meetings all day and then dinner with the wife each night. Also, the hotel I was staying at had crappy BJ rules so I had to travel. Only managed to squeeze in two one hour sessions at a couple of MGM properties that were offering 6D, S17, RSA, LS with 75% pen with $25 minimum.
When I walk in, I can only find two tables with these rules and both were completely empty. This made me think two things: I can't really Wong in and out (bad), but I can play a ton of hands quickly head to head with the dealer (good). Anyway, I buy in for $600 and start fine. In the first shoe the count stays near zero but then starts to tank dropping to -2. I'm down about $125 and I've lost a couple of hands in a row so I tell the dealer she's too good for me and leave to play craps for a few minutes waiting for the opportunity to start a new shoe. I actually got lucky at the craps table and won my $150 back. I then head back to the BJ table with a new determination and more importantly, a new shoe. About 1/2 way through this shoe the TC goes up to +4 and stays there. I keep pushing out my max bet ($200) hand after hand and the count stays right there. Terrific, right? WRONG! I lost $1,400 in about 35 minutes which was all I brought with me to the casino that day. The only good thing was I'm sure I looked like a gambler chasing his losses as I continued to dig into my pockets for more money because the count was so good. I got stiff hand after stiff hand while the dealer got all the 20s and BJs. Every time I doubled or split, I lost. I left with my tail between my legs and a completely empty wallet. The dealer clearly felt sorry for me telling me I should play at tables with other players so I don't lose so fast.
The next day I manage to find one more hour to play at a different casino but with the same rules. Again I play for about an hour, mostly head to head but with 1 or 2 other players part of the time. During this session, the count never goes above +1. In fact, I think I only bet above the $25 minimum 4 times when I bet $50. Despite the poor count, I won a lot more hands than the previous day. Ended up ahead $262 for the session but still way down overall. And that's how I had to leave.
Bottom line - played a total of 2 hours, lost over $1,100 and convinced my wife and friends that I'm a degenerate gambler and this "counting stuff" is just hocus pocus. Not exactly the trip I was hoping for .
The only consolation? La Reve at the Wynn was unbelievable!

Your first priority, of course, is to build your bankroll. Eventually, provided your game is strong, the wife will figure out that some of the extras around the house comes from - guess where. I seldom divulge actual numbers with my wife, though she well realizes that her monthly cash requirements come from my now part time playing hours. Eventually, your wife may realize, as my wife has, that blackjack, by some, should be approached as a business.

Growth of that business us determined by many factors - actually opt retry good material for another thread.

[ZeeBabar]

If you continue playing this will happen from time to time. You get ecstatic after your 3rd or 4th straight winning session, start thinking you can afford that new car or whatever. You lose 3 or 4 straight time, you think counting does not work, you are just a degenerate gambler, and walk in expecting to lose yet again.

Ryemo's advice of talking more money to the tables is a good one. Two days ago, I was down $2200 and then went on to leave the casino up $275. Yesterday, I was down $2100, came back to $1450 before I left the casino. If I had taken less, I would have lost and left. $1500 in pocket, I play the $10 games, $2.5k and I sit at the DD games, $5k if I am going to try the 6 deck game.

[Ryemo]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong and tell me if this false thinking...

Assume you are playing a DD game with good rules/great pen and an aggressive spread; wouldn't it be likely that you would experience greater variance on such a game? Or at least experience the variance at a faster pace? I figure positive TC frequencies occur much more often on a solid DD game, as opposed to a 6D game. And if you see positive counts much more often, you would subsequently place more money on the felt in a shorter amount of time. And the more money that you wager, then the greater the variance will be. Is this correct?

If so, then I would say bring more money to the DD game vs the 6D game, Zee. I'm aware that once you get a very high positive count in a shoe, you will be throwing your max bet out on back to back hands... But I feel as if those occurrences are few and far in between.

With my very limited experience, I feel like I've encountered the most amount of variance and some of my largest buy-ins on very good DD games. But maybe I'm also suffering from selective memory. Anyone have an answer to this?

[DSchles]

You're correct about everything.

Don

[ZeeBabar]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong and tell me if this false thinking...

Assume you are playing a DD game with good rules/great pen and an aggressive spread; wouldn't it be likely that you would experience greater variance on such a game? Or at least experience the variance at a faster pace? I figure positive TC frequencies occur much more often on a solid DD game, as opposed to a 6D game. And if you see positive counts much more often, you would subsequently place more money on the felt in a shorter amount of time. And the more money that you wager, then the greater the variance will be. Is this correct?

If so, then I would say bring more money to the DD game vs the 6D game, Zee. I'm aware that once you get a very high positive count in a shoe, you will be throwing your max bet out on back to back hands... But I feel as if those occurrences are few and far in between.

With my very limited experience, I feel like I've encountered the most amount of variance and some of my largest buy-ins on very good DD games. But maybe I'm also suffering from selective memory. Anyone have an answer to this?

I am still learning how to play a 6 deck game but where I play, there are more 6 deck games and i wong out in negative counts of TC -1 or -2. However, when e deck is positive, you can put out several max bets, lose etc. and if you don't have sufficient funds on you, you have to leave a positive deck. In DD games, it's not easy to run out of funds in a positive deck and you can go to the ATM after the shoe is over.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

" ... you can go to the ATM after the shoe is over."

ATM for cash ? You really M U S T be kidding. A Big Time Ploppy Action.

I have never done such a thing in a casino; besides the fees are exorbitant.

[Ryemo]

I was about to say...the fees alone should deter you from showing up under-funded. Bottom line; come to the tables financially prepared... with cash! Or chips

[BJGenius007]

ATM for cash ? You really M U S T be kidding. A Big Time Ploppy Action.

I have never done such a thing in a casino; besides the fees are exorbitant.

If he can win big at the table, $7 ATM surcharge is nothing.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

"If he can win big at the table, $7 ATM surcharge is nothing."

$7 won't get him much. He'll cough up a great deal more.

[Freightman]

If he can win big at the table, $7 ATM surcharge is nothing.

For someone who displays your level of paranoia, I'm surprised you would use an ATM in a casino.