getting arrested for counting

[BJprive]

I've read extensively what happens to counters when they're backed off and would like to prepare for it as best as I can. Although a rare occurrence I'm sure, I'd like to know if anyone has any experience with this and what outcomes they've had.

So usually when u get backed off a number of things can happen. Pit boss asks u for ID, cops are called and try to detain you. Ask u to sign trespassing papers in the backroom. If u refuse they'll arrest u and give u a citation or make up faulty charges.

I know people say u shouldn't even bother cashing out your chips u should leave that for another time. But what do most counters do when they get backed off and asked for name/ID. I'm familiar with the law so police shouldn't be able to detain u without having probable cause you're involved in criminal activity... but let's face it... the cops are there to accommodate the casino.

What do u do in this situation when
1) they refuse to cash in your chips without showing ID
2) they ask u to go to the backroom to sign papers
3) police detain/ask u for your information

Thanks

[Dog Hand]

<snip>What do u do in this situation when
1) they refuse to cash in your chips without showing ID
2) they ask u to go to the backroom to sign papers
3) police detain/ask u for your information

Thanks

1. Leave with the chips... you can use them later, cash them later, or sell them to another AP.

2. Decline and leave.

3. I haven't experienced this yet.

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand

[Ryemo]

When getting backed off, grab your chips and do not cash out. Hold your head down and walk to the nearest exit. If anyone requests ID, or asks you to come to a back room, decline and tell them you want to leave.

[ZeeBabar]

First, ensure you are not being paranoid. Second, the days of being taken to a back room are mostly gone. Mostly, I have been politely told that I may not play BJ but could play other games. Heard that others were told, politely, that they were too good and they will not be allowed to play.

Sometimes es they may even walk you to the cashier, let you cash your chips and leave. Now, if you are talklking about playing unrated, then heading out without cashing makes sense so they do not get your ID.

[LVBear584]

Here's an old standby that may be of help: http://www.thebeargrowls.com/?p=73

[Freightman]

If you're playing rated, there's no reason not to show ID, or your players card at the cage. They know who you are anyways, and it's likely that the cashier is simply following some preordained policy as it pertains to dollars at cash out. On the other hand, assuming you have not passed some mandatory government reporting threshold, playing unrated requires a bit more judgement. Cash out decisions should be based on a number of factors such as amount, stores ability to take action, is the store a sweat shop and others.

In my general neck of the woods, I have never not cashed out for fear of having to produce ID or not. There have been occasions when I have not fully cashed, or not cashed at all, because I simply wanted to keep them guessing. I have been at the cage several times with e pit calling the cage ask g how much I've cashed out for. There are usually chips in my pocket in such occasions" . My wife earns one of her many bonuses cashing out for me at times other than my play time.

There are sometimes other personal factors which may enter into the equation. These may include problems such as a bad back or trouble walkng - using valet services for example, stretching your own cash out limits to avoid pain if additional walking etc. I think you get the point.

In Vegas for example, you learn to make decisions based on the house. Ive never played at Indian casinos south of the 49th, though that will occur first quarter next year, when we head to the Phoenix area for some rest recreation and Family stuff. I'll have to review my procedures for those places.

As for getting back roomed or beaten up, I've never experienced those issues. I think business today, even morally corrupt business, is usually to smart to get involved in that shit. Of course, not everyone is that smart, which is why guys like Nersesian are in business.

[Freightman]

Just an add on point - I've never feared for my safety during any backoff. I'll try tondo anything I can to avoid that potential fear,

[Romes]

I've read extensively what happens to counters when they're backed off and would like to prepare for it as best as I can. Although a rare occurrence I'm sure, I'd like to know if anyone has any experience with this and what outcomes they've had.

So usually when u get backed off a number of things can happen. Pit boss asks u for ID, cops are called and try to detain you. Ask u to sign trespassing papers in the backroom. If u refuse they'll arrest u and give u a citation or make up faulty charges.

Well, 'most' back offs actually are just that... them coming up to you and backing you off the blackjack game, saying things like "You're play is too good for us. You can play any other game except blackjack." or "No more blackjack tonight." or "Flat bet only." When a casino wants to get uppity and trespass you, that's when they'll try to illegally detain you to get information from you.

I know people say u shouldn't even bother cashing out your chips u should leave that for another time. But what do most counters do when they get backed off and asked for name/ID. I'm familiar with the law so police shouldn't be able to detain u without having probable cause you're involved in criminal activity... but let's face it... the cops are there to accommodate the casino.

What do u do in this situation when
1) they refuse to cash in your chips without showing ID
2) they ask u to go to the backroom to sign papers
3) police detain/ask u for your information

Thanks

1) You should just take your chips and leave and come back on a different day/shift (or better yet have someone else cash the chips out if it's not over the amount that could be considered 'structuring' to avoid taxes). However, it is worth noting (at least in Nevada) that it is ILLEGAL for them to refuse to cash your chips purely based off your refusal to show ID. Chips are considered a "gambling debt" by which the Nevada Gaming Commission/state laws regulate the casino CAN NOT avoid paying. Casinos are not allowed to 'welch' on a gambling debt, essentially. I'd actually consider walking out with my chips, calling Gaming, and walking back in with Gaming to cash out as they will get in direct trouble if they don't cash you out then. However, this is NOT something a 'regular' counter wants to do at any of their 'regular' places because it will draw attention and make you more memorable, etc.

2) The proper response is to simply say "No I do not want to go anywhere and I wish to exercise my right to leave this private establishment." Above all else, just keep stating "I wish to leave" as they know they can't legally hold you (at least some of the 'average intelligent' ones know). They'll say things like "I strongly urge you to come with me" or "You NEED to come with me" but really you don't have to do jack. It's like the owner of a 7-11 telling you that you have to follow him in to his back room office and locking you in there... Yeah, that's illegal detention. They're a private business so they have every right to ask you to leave, but they do not have any right to hold you against your will if you haven't done anything illegal, which card counting as we all know isn't illegal... anywhere in the states.

3) If the police are involved then the casino probably already illegally detained you and you're "probably" going to be suing them. You do have to identify yourself when an officer asks you to do so. Not complying gives the officers the right to detain you until they can figure out who you are. The trick here is when you go to hand your ID to the officer you can clearly state (hopefully on video) "I'm giving you my ID to identify myself to an officer. My personal information is private and not at your discretion to disseminate." You should go read up on James Grosgean and how a cop took his ID, handed it to the Casino Staff, and then the individual cop got sued for 6 figures... and the cop lost.

I wrote a few articles on A to Z stuff in blackjack, and of course this is something that comes up. I believe it was article 2 that discusses what to do in these situations: http://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-...n-Blackjack-2/

[RWM]

Listen to the episodes of Gambling With an Edge where Bob Nersesian was the guest. We address this question a lot.