The reality of H17

**Norm** · 12-12-2011, 05:18 PM

The reason that I added H17 to the header, is that I don’t think we spend enough time educating players on the effects of this rule. Yes, BJ 6:5 is an abomination. But, anyone capable of simple math should realize that. H17 is far more invidious. It doesn’t really sound that bad to a neophyte. But, it has caused vastly more damage to players overall, whether they are APs or just vacation players. There simply is no reason for casinos to use such rules. They are going to get the bad players' money anyhow. It may take a few more minutes, but they will get it because the average player has either a gambling budget or a gambling addiction and will usually lose all of it. And that is 99.99% of all players. Meanwhile, they detract from the overall glamour of the city. By not giving the gambler an occasional win, they lose customers. And the city loses its attraction. All to harm the 0.01% of players that are the very people that bring glamour to the craft.

**21forme** · 12-12-2011, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Norm

There simply is no reason for casinos to use such rules.

Sure there is. Supply and demand. if they can make a non-onvious rule change (to most players) like H17, why not increase their edge by 30ish%. That's what the bean counters earning 100K are for - to come up with ideas like this. H17 will never go away, but S17 will, eventually. 6:5 is the scourge that should be banished. When you get rid of that, talk to me about h17 :-)

**Boardwalker** · 12-13-2011, 03:03 PM

Which casinos in Atlantic City have S17 at $10 tables?

**bigplayer** · 12-15-2011, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by Boardwalker

Which casinos in Atlantic City have S17 at $10 tables?

There are $15 s17 games at Borgata (not $10 but pretty close).

**hi-loJoe** · 12-19-2011, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by bigplayer

There are $15 s17 games at Borgata (not $10 but pretty close).

I played a s17 10 min at tropicana but that was close to a year ago. it was actually a 6 decker too! Its really tough being a red chipper in the pa/ac area.

**jaygruden** · 12-19-2011, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by hi-loJoe

I played a s17 10 min at tropicana but that was close to a year ago. it was actually a 6 decker too! Its really tough being a red chipper in the pa/ac area.

You can red chip for sure in PA. Weekday "day shifts" are best but really unless you're playing on weekend evening, you should have no problems.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 12-12-2011, 05:51 PM

It was just a few years ago when H17 only existed in Northern NV and Downtown Vegas.
Amazingly 8 deckers were alien to Nevada as well.
I saw a FULL table of drunken ploppies playing a H17 8 decker with 6/5 BJ's; and I knew that the end was approaching.
The number of BJ tables in Las Vegas has markedly decreased in recent years while the number of casinos has increased.

**jaygruden** · 12-12-2011, 05:51 PM

Jaygruden S17 Casino billboard:

"Come play BJ at JG Casino. Best BJ game on the East Coast. 99.64% average payout to player."

All a store needs to do is put the good rules in place and advertise the game and the civilians will flock to it along with the AP's.

**Hsiaodi** · 12-12-2011, 06:00 PM

I've never played during the glory days of BJ. I was at Wizard's forum a while ago, and somewhere along the line, there was a "game designer" got to the forum. From the discussions that he started, they just don't get it. He seems always going for the kill. That extra 0.1% of advantage for the house. He kept stressing that these are games for entertainment. That ploppies and Ap's should realize that the casinos are providing a servicing entertainment, that should not exploited by people....
Secondly, look at that River's discussion that was brought up recently. They started to use CSM at somewhere they use to not have CSM's.
I guess my point is, they never learn and ploppies never learn. I wonder when they open up more markets, ie Ohio, Mass, will it get better or worse.

**Hsiaodi** · 12-12-2011, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by Tthree

The Rivers CSMs, according to the thread, drove everyone to other casinos for BJ. The few that were left were talking about how bad the game was made by the new change to CSMs.

FW-CT maybe 4 months ago started with more CSM in the Asian pit. During weekends, they were pretty packed. These were $25 min CSM's...
Was there maybe a month ago, they were gone. Not sure what happened. More ASM now.
Same place also switched to H17, not so long ago.
I guess my point, just constantly cat/mouse, they're trying new strategies

**Frankie** · 12-12-2011, 06:13 PM

As I think Norm was suggesting, one problem with rules such as H17 is that they're short-sighted. Say a bean counter makes a decision to switch all of a casino's BJ tables to H17 (or 6:5, or NDAS, or any one of a number of changes that hurt the player). In the short term, the casino's profits will likely increase, since the house edge will immediately be higher, but there is a lag between a rule change and its effect on the number of customers. The bean counter's decision will be praised, and this will encourage more such decisions. Eventually, however, customers will tend to return to that casino less, either because they know the rule changes are unfavorable, and decide to start playing elsewhere, or (more likely) they notice their money just isn't lasting as long, even if they don't know why. This may even have the greater effect of discouraging that player from playing blackjack altogether. As it seems with many casino decisions (penetration, shuffle complexity, etc.), choices that are good for APs tend to be good for casinos.

Thank goodness for the generosity of civilians in supplying both groups with an income :-)

**AussiePlayer** · 12-12-2011, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Frankie

As I think Norm was suggesting, one problem with rules such as H17 is that they're short-sighted. Say a bean counter makes a decision to switch all of a casino's BJ tables to H17 (or 6:5, or NDAS, or any one of a number of changes that hurt the player). In the short term, the casino's profits will likely increase, since the house edge will immediately be higher, but there is a lag between a rule change and its effect on the number of customers. The bean counter's decision will be praised, and this will encourage more such decisions. Eventually, however, customers will tend to return to that casino less, either because they know the rule changes are unfavorable, and decide to start playing elsewhere, or (more likely) they notice their money just isn't lasting as long, even if they don't know why. This may even have the greater effect of discouraging that player from playing blackjack altogether. As it seems with many casino decisions (penetration, shuffle complexity, etc.), choices that are good for APs tend to be good for casinos.

Thank goodness for the generosity of civilians in supplying both groups with an income :-)

Many businesses including casinos work in this fashion, the short term increases get the bean counter promoted and it is no longer his responsibility when the drop off occurs

**darco77** · 12-12-2011, 08:22 PM

As many of you can attest, it is difficult explaining to an uninformed acquaintance why 6:5 or H17 should be avoided. If your buddy is a casual gambler, they may agree with you in person, only to take the first available seat once they get to the casino. They are there to have fun, not search the floor for the best seat. In my experience of dealing with more hardcore gamblers, suggestions have been met with outright disdain. They either have a system, know what they are doing, or something to that point. They certainly don't want or need my help. Of course, every time I've tried to help them, I've come at them with a hard stance: you are pissing money away, you are making a bad choice, you are doing it wrong. Attack, attack, attack!

After many failures, I've finally found some success with a softer approach. I open the discussion with the beer analogy.

"OK, we're at a bar/club/casino, and you want a beer. There are two bars, just 20 feet apart. The bar on the right has a short line and sells Heinekens for $7. The bar on the left has a longer line, but sells the same Heineken for $4."

Most of them - even the wannabe "ballers" - are actually frugal enough to wait in the longer line. Equating this scenario to the 6:5 versus 3:2 decision opens them up to discussion, where they eventually concede they should not be settling for a 6:5 table. From there, I give them a hall pass.

"If you absolutely must play a 6:5 table, just promise me there are boobies involved. You know, play in the tit pit and at least get a booty show. Don't piss your money away on a 6:5 game if it's dealt by some crusty AARP dropout!"

My results with this approach are far from 100%. The hardcore and ignorant don't change, but they won't change, period. It's not going to happen. The more rational folks usually come around. A number have noticed their money lasting longer on full pay games. Some of them only play the 6:5 if it comes with a T&A show. A few have quit 6:5 altogether and use their saved money to hit OG or the Rhino (Actual quote: If I'm gonna pay for a show, I wanna get my money's worth). Of course, this approach will only work on folks with specific personality types, genders, sexual orientations, etc. But for those in the demographic, it seems to do the trick quite nicely, without ruffling too many feather.