Rigged bj game at OK Indian casino?????

[dharmaprija]

Anyone heard of any of the "choctaw" casinos rigging their blackjack games?? (With the ante its already inherently rigged) I have a feeling that they may have inserted a set of six decks into their shuffle machine that was rich in 5's and 6's and THIN in 10's. Or is it possibly a fact of the "shuffle" machine itself? They dont use a CONTINUOUS shuffle machine, they play thru the entire shoe, then put the six decks into an "auto" shuffler, take out a freshly shuffled set of six decks from the machine and away we go. Does that shuffle machine have the capabilities of being "rigged"? Could it be "set" to mix the cards so that it would nearly always be face, low, face, low, face,low, etc???? Or is it possible to set it for a LARGE majority of the Face/ten cards to be shuffled to "BEHIND" where the cut card will most likely be placed????? I have had two BACK TO BACK sessions at one of these f^*&BT%NY^&$&*!!! casinos where the count goes THRU THE ROOF and then never pays out. We never get to the "sweet" spot. The count tonight went to over a 20 running count and at one point a 9 true count and ZIP ZIP ZIP. The penetration isnt too bad, they cut right around 1 1/2 decks out of six. Its weird. I fell for it the first nite, i bet the count and got SCREWED and tonight when i saw it happening again, i just bet like i would for like a 2 count and STILL lost all the hands. Since I saw it happen before I was somewhat "testing the waters" to see if the same scenario came up and IF I WOULD HAVE BET ON THAT I WOULD HAVE DEFINATELY MADE MONEY!!!!!!!!!! Anyone have some feedback? Anyone heard of these places cheating? I will gladly email the name and locale if anyone has specifics on this situation. I'm goin back tomorrow and test the waters again, I nearly guarantee it happens tomorrow. A lil inside info....it IS possible the employees may have gotten wind that I count cards....would this prompt them to RIG the decks JUST when I play???? I know Thorpe had to deal with it years ago and I know in Vegas there are those HH dealers who will deal seconds etc. Could this be the case???? Perplexed.

[zengrifter]

User is banned, content deleted.

[Frostbyte]

Try observing a shoe and counting the 5s and 6s that come out. Seeing more than 24 of either would confirm the theory. But for the fact that its Choctaw, one could, having hypothetically confirmed the existence of this rigged shoe, play through it, request an inspection at the end and have a whale of a tort in your arsenal, especially with several cameras observing each table which would record the results of said inspection.

[Dog Hand]

Anyone heard of any of the "choctaw" casinos rigging their blackjack games?? <snip> Does that shuffle machine have the capabilities of being "rigged"? Could it be "set" to mix the cards so that it would nearly always be face, low, face, low, face,low, etc????<snip>

dharmaprija,

If you can find one that places the cards high/low/high/low..., then play heads up against the dealer. When you're selecting your wager, recall the last card dealt: if it was Low, bet the maximum, since you'll receive two High cards and the dealer will receive two Lows; if High, bet the minimum, and you'll get Low/Low vs. the dealer's High/High, then take only one hit (it'll be Low). Next round bet the max.

You should be able to crush this game without bothering to count, even with the Ante.

Please send me 10% of your profits for this advice

Dog Hand

[dharmaprija]

HEres an update on this situation....I am still not convinced things arent being manipulated....I cant really give the specifics but word may have gotten to this casino that I thought they were rigging the game......so all of a sudden yesterday...i play two shoes, count is good on first...pays off....the second shoe count good paying like its supposed to....and i get a BOATLOAD of Blackjacks. So many that the person playing beside me calls out the number I got in the shoe(he got ZERO) and as a superstitious ploppy claims it was due to his cut.....but I found it really ironic that my complaining of the game being rigged has a possibility of being heard about....just as does my arrival at the casino......and a win. WHat I hope this all is is just a case of "count paranoia"(count draculas little known vegas cousin). As a side note this is the FIRST and ONLY time I have won at this particular establishment......even after seeing many a high count go to naught.

[Aslan]

so all of a sudden yesterday...i play two shoes, count is good on first...pays off....the second shoe count good paying like its supposed to....

Paying like it's supposed to? No, I don't think so. Combine the fact that you only win 43% of hands on average with the fact that the advantage in plus counts is due solely to successful splits and double downs as well as receiving more naturals (SDD&Ns), and I think you will come up with the situation that you are winning fewer plus counts moneywise than the dealer, but winning more money overall due to the SDD&Ns. If you have plus counts devoid of SDD&Ns (and to me this should be the chief bane of all card counters), chances are you will lose money. Maybe, someone will check out with a sim and more precise language, but maybe I am wrong and the card counter will not only win more money overall, but also the majority of his plus counts, although that has not been my experience. Still, if he does, it is only due to receiving those all important SDD&Ns. I hope someone can add to this, or refute it, as the case may be.

[bigharryonion]

I havnt won at choctaw, but i have won at winstar before. I may have just been lucky though. I turned a $40 dollar buy in into $280. It was back before I started learning to count, though. So it was probably just "luck".

[White Guy]

You are playing a losing game already. You think it might be rigged. You continue to play anyways. Now you think they may have rigged it in your favor to cover their asses??

Wow.

[metronome]

Since the $.50 ante makes these games virtually unplayable, I doubt they need to finiggle the cards to increase their already hefty advantage.
Surely you've seen/read the 50 to 100 hands/hour stat.
And please tell me you're not "playing all".
I've seen them open plenty of tables with virgin decks. All the cards were there. I've back-counted quite a few shoes at Choctaw/Durant and have not seen anything suggesting corrupted decks are in play.

[Three]

I heard they only get to keep the ante. Any profit on the game other than the ante is given back to the players in the form ante free promos. I am running on barely paid attention to info since I live nowhere near there and wouldn't play if I were there.

[Three]

I heard they only get to keep the ante. Any profit on the game other than the ante is given back to the players in the form ante free promos. I am running on barely paid attention to info since I live nowhere near there and wouldn't play if I were there.

My point was, if the above is right they can't profit from messing with the shoe. They would have to be doing some sort of illegal skim or something. Which some have suggested they have designs to do.

[dharmaprija]

My point was, if the above is right they can't profit from messing with the shoe. They would have to be doing some sort of illegal skim or something. Which some have suggested they have designs to do.

Must say that rumor is COMMON in the area....if everyone is saying it??? It's even been put forth via those in employ....things that make u go....hmmm

[Nyne]

For wonging, wouldn't it be best to base it on your BR/bet size/ramp/EV? With a $.50 ante, if the TC = 2 (adv = ~.5%) and your bet ramp calls for a $100 bet, well your EV from your $100 bet is $.50, so you're basically playing a breakeven game. Not worth it. Therefore, theoretically as long as your EV on any given hand (based on your bet size * adv) is greater than the ante, you should play.

If that's the case, I assume you'd need a large bankroll, tolerance for big bets by the casino, and serious wonging to make it worth playing a game with an ante.

Suburbs, you're close to right on this, but I'd argue that having a positive EV isn't enough. You need to ensure that your CE (CE = E - V/2kB) is positive too. When your EV is small and you give up some of it to an ante, you end up taking on a lot of variance for a small amount of EV, which means your CE is small or even negative. This doesn't mean you can't get a positive CE out of this game with aggressive wonging, but you may have to push your wong-in/out point up higher, which will result in a very small hourly rate. It's almost never worth playing against an ante with a small BR, and rarely with a large BR.

Must say that rumor is COMMON in the area....if everyone is saying it??? It's even been put forth via those in employ....things that make u go....hmmm

They should spread the cards when they change decks. Watch them change the cards, and that should answer your question. I think it's unlikely there's anything weird going on, but that's the easy way to find out for sure.