HiLo vs Zen - I'm confused

[Cardguy]

I've been counting for about 6 months using HiLo with about 40 indices. I've been wondering if I should move up to a stronger count and I was leaning toward Zen. When I run the sim on CVCX however, it suggests that HiLo is better than Zen which doesn't make sense to me. The game I'm playing is 8D, 83% pen, S17, DAS, LS. My BR is 30K. I don't play at counts worse than -1. Assuming 70 rnds/hr and a 15:1 spread (ramp is 10,10,25,50,100,150 at TC +4), HiLo with full indices yields the following: $36.76 win/hr, 0.1% ROR, Score 64.25, N0 15,564.
Zen with full indices (ramp of 10,10,10,225,50,75,100,125,150 at TC +7) gives $36.96/hr, 0.2% ROR, Score 56.45 and N0 17,716
For both sims, I checked Backcount and set it to -1 with Departure adjust set to 2. I did not check Play two hands or Half true counts

I tried to capture the CVCX output and paste it here but couldn't figure out how to do so. Sorry.

I'd actually prefer to stick with HiLo so I'm fine if this is correct but I think I might be doing something wrong.

Thoughts?

[BigJer]

I've been counting for about 6 months using HiLo with about 40 indices.

Wow! I think I only know 27.

I've been wondering if I should move up to a stronger count and I was leaning toward Zen. When I run the sim on CVCX however, it suggests that HiLo is better than Zen which doesn't make sense to me. The game I'm playing is 8D, 83% pen, S17, DAS, LS. My BR is 30K. I don't play at counts worse than -1. Assuming 70 rnds/hr and a 15:1 spread (ramp is 10,10,25,50,100,150 at TC +4), HiLo with full indices yields the following: $36.76 win/hr, 0.1% ROR, Score 64.25, N0 15,564.
Zen with full indices (ramp of 10,10,10,225,50,75,100,125,150 at TC +7) gives $36.96/hr, 0.2% ROR, Score 56.45 and N0 17,716
For both sims, I checked Backcount and set it to -1 with Departure adjust set to 2. I did not check Play two hands or Half true counts

I tried to capture the CVCX output and paste it here but couldn't figure out how to do so. Sorry.

I'd actually prefer to stick with HiLo so I'm fine if this is correct but I think I might be doing something wrong.

Thoughts?

I'd stick with HiLo for another year then move up to a stronger count. My feeling is if you are going to go up to a stronger count then go big like Omega II or something. Lol. But I defer to Don Schles or Munch on this.

[Norm]

What is the percentage of hands played for each (to the right of Backcount)? Probably not the same. Also depends on the version of Zen. It's not easy to make a good comparison of two strategies when backcounting as the percent of hands played is hard to make the same.

[ZeeBabar]

Another thread to upset KJ. He has made 6 figure income for several years using HiLo. In the end, I would like to know what motivates the OP to think about change. Is it losing sessions? you seem like someone who plays golf on the local course with a decent set of clubs and now you cannot resist getting the same clubs that Tiger Woods used in winning championships. It's like a guy who wants to trade in last years Corvette for this year's because it's 0.7 seconds faster from 0 to 60.

There is ample evidence, KJ's record included, that you can make $50k per year using HiLo. Why not just stay with it for a few more years and see if BJ is for you and you can handle the swings and more? Get more experience man.

[Cardguy]

Now I'm more confused. When I set the Backcount to -1, it says 100% of hands are being played for both sims. I'm using HiLo Full Indices and Zen Original Full Indices for my comparison. Obviously I'm missing something since the count will not be above -1 100% of the time.

[ZeeBabar]

It could be when a player reports losing 9 out of 10 sessions and his profit's for the year. Or loses $20k in one night. That would certainly give me pause. Zee, you simply cannot put someone down for wanting/trying to improve their game when you've never put one iota of effort into doing this for yourself.

moses, come on. Where did I say the OP should not improve their game? Like the analogy I provided, there is much to becoming a better driver than to go buy a newer car. There is a whole lot to learn about BJ, about different situations, about how you react to them, about bet spreads, optimal betting, heat and such. You may think that 6 months is enough, I think 2+ years, traveling, studying books, working on the finer part of AP skills is needed. After you have attained a certain level, you can go for a better racket, golf club or count.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

I have just realized something rather interesting.

Posters, naturally enough, are taken at their word.

A wise man once said ... "Trust but verify."

KJ claims to make a 6 figure yearly income via modest stakes with Hi-Lo.

I simply do NOT believe that. Each of us will believe what serves our

private purposes. Mathematicians and scholars do NOT.

They view dubious claims with a healthy measure of skepticism.

On this forum there are users of Level One counts that use KJ's hyperbole

to bolster their dogged self-serving belief that they have no need to step up

to a better count. Thus protecting themselves from facing an examination of

their choices and practices and results RE: their (long-term) BJ history, and the

possibilities of changing what they have been doing for months, years, decades !

ZeeBabar is certainly NOT the only one.

[Cardguy]

The only reason I'm considering switching counts is because "It's hard to teach old dogs new tricks". I think the longer I continue to play HiLo, the more it will become ingrained in my brain and the harder it will be to make the switch. So I'd prefer to figure out NOW what I should use for the next twenty years and then learn it. If its HiLo that would be great as I already am fairly proficient with it.

[Norm]

Not sure he said he wasn't using other techniques in addition, or that he was making this every year. HiLo is certainly adequate when also taking advantage of other opportunities.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

KJ says the last FOUR years have all been well above $100,000.
He even said that by this Summer he was well above $100,000.
Bare in mind ~ he is a fairly light bettor. This smells of hyperbole,
or an extremely low Z-Score !!

[Frank Galvin]

Norm, no argument that Hi-Lo is fine for the masses, as well as for those players/AP's who have honed other skills and have access to games where those skills can be utilized (less and less opps as more ASMs and CSMs used by dealers).

For others, with the intellectual curiosity, ability and dedication to explore more, g-d bless. There are a myriad of linear systems, balanced and unbalanced, with variations galore. There are also exotic nonlinear approaches, such as the Tarzan Count and Tthree's 2D approach.

Like Baskin Robbins, with their 31 flavored varieties of ice cream, there's some blackjack counting system out there for everyone. Me, I prefer a two scoop cone with pistachio and strawberry.

[Norm]

Different strokes. There are many systems, and many different people.

[DSchles]

You can see from p. 172 of BJA3 that, under no circumstances, apples to apples, should Zen not outperform Hi-Lo. So something is wrong.

Don