AP protocols

[Freightman]

Sir, please don't make reference to what you think is my preferred site. It should be obvious that I have a soft spot for this site. I sort of view this as the landing place of ken's site, which is where I started. That is why despite my displeasure with many things here, I continue to try to participate and try to make my participation work.

Your comment of the other site driving away pros, I presume is in reference to your own situation. Sir, you did that yourself. It was overdue in coming. I'd be willing to bet that is a strong consensus opinion, even from members that participate on both sites and were subject to the situation.

I do realize that many here may not know exactly who Tbonz is as he posts infrequently and went by a different handle on our previous home (ken's site). But, yes he is the long-time highly successful player and team organizer/manager that I say he is, although he is unlikely to 'tout' his own success. And there are few 'real deal professionals' remaining here to stand up for him.

I doubt Tbonz would be bothered by the responses as I am on his behalf. He is the type of guy that doesn't waste time 'debating' things of this nature. He is likely to just have a 'why bother participating' attitude and go on his way not sharing his experiences. For that everyone here loses....believe me.

Norman likes to say, criticize the post, not the poster. This situation would have been the ideal spot for that sentiment. I, myself said, I don't agree with that aggressive position, but there was certainly no need for the name calling that followed, to someone that really should be respected to a much greater degree.

The only comments I am going to make here are
I have defended myself on these issues before
I really don't need some prima Donna throwing another hissy fit telling me what is appropriate or not
You claim a soft spot for this site, yet you have died on it, quit numerous times and bad mouthed wherever possible.
You seem to have developed a hate hard on for me and Flash - get over it
You truly don't want to debate the finer points of these issues with me.

[Freightman]

K.J. - You're 100% right about lack of respect but that is the new world that we live in. There is no reasonable expectation of respect. I believe it's just best to be appreciative and reciprocating when it is shown.
I hope you stay and continue to post on this site. I have valued your input.

Your thoughts are admirable, however misdirected. The poster you have responded to likely has ulterior motives.

[Freightman]

The only comments I am going to make here are
I have defended myself on these issues before
I really don't need some prima Donna throwing another hissy fit telling me what is appropriate or not
You claim a soft spot for this site, yet you have died on it, quit numerous times and bad mouthed wherever possible.
You seem to have developed a hate hard on for me and Flash - get over it
You truly don't want to debate the finer points of these issues with me.

Should have also mentioned KJ - I never saw you on the "other" site coming out of the closet defending those individuals, unable to defend themselves, under "crucifixion tough love rules"

That is where your misguided umbrage should be directed.

[Three]

I assume you mean 'clique'?? Like how your little 'clique' disrespect me and rates me as unhelpful every chance they get in an effort to marginalize me. Is that what you are talking about?

I'll give you this much....I am the fool for having continued to try to make this work.

Thanks for the correction KJ. I have never desired to be in "cliques" so it is no surprise I don't know how to spell it.

As for your rating it looks like when you attack people you get a poor rating and when you help people you get a good rating. I don't know why you are surprised that you get bad ratings when you shifted from a helpful and respectful poster to a more attacking poster. I think you would be smart enough to expect that. I don't see any helpful posts of yours being rated unhelpful. Only this new KJ that attacks people. You didn't use to do that and your helpful ratings reflected that. Did you think people would vote based on anything else? Go back to be a get along and helpful poster and I bet your ratings will reflect that. You never used to post the way a good percentage of your posts are now. I think the ratings just reflect a change in the quality of your average post. You still post some good ones but you are opening the door for bad ratings by the spirit of many of your posts. It used to be almost all of your posts were good ones. Why don't you take a look at what posts got rated bad and try to understand why rather than jumping to conclusions about a conspiracy. Next thing you know you will be posting with all the conspiracy nuts at the paranoid site.

[moo321]

AP Protocol? If I see a game that can be played I will do the same thing to you.....I want you gone too and it doesn't matter if you were there first. The stronger Lion eats the kill....thats kind of how look at it. We aren't friends, brothers in arms, kindred spirits, or anything remotely close to that. In my mind other APs in my feeding ground need to go. So if I make them uncomfortable and they leave.....fine. If they don't, well I deal with it then. And if its bad to play there with another AP present and I can't get them to leave, I will. Its not about pride, its about making money especially at the professional level. My balls and brains are for business,my heart is for family. Nothing personal just care about my business way more than a strangers.

I disagree. At the very least, APs should be concerned about protecting the game. If there is a double digit % game that will take heavy action, and your aggression ends it, you have hurt yourself. I've heard APs with this type of attitude making jackassy comments about counting at the table that threatened themselves, me, and the game itself. No positive EV there.

It's one thing to wong someone else's table. It's another to be a douchebag and go to 3 hands (which isn't even the optimal bet).

[moo321]

I find post #31 by Freightman and Post #32 by Flash completely unnecessary and inappropriate.

While I personally don't agree with Tbonz aggressive way of handling this situation, it is not uncommon among top professionals of which Tbonz most certainly is.

I have voiced my concern about how this site has and continues to drive away the top professional players and this is yet another example.

Tbonz is one of the all-time greats in this business and agree or disagree with a specific position, his posts are invaluable and any site and it's members, particularly this site, which a high volume of newer members should feel extremely fortune when he does post.

He posts infrequently, dating back to Ken's site for me, maybe longer for others, but he deserves much more respect than he just received here. A member of his tremendous credentials and success should be encouraged to participate more, not disrespected like this.

He's a legit pro, so therefore his extremely aggressive approach is correct? I mean, Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player of all time, but I have no problem saying he was a dick.

[moo321]

Back to the OP, yeah I think there are some minimal guidelines.

1. Protect the game
2. Protect the game
3. Only give information to people who can handle it
4. Don't ever publicly discuss what a play looks like, or how to snap off a play
5. Don't out other APs
6. If you do business with other people, be honest
7. Don't start trouble with people for no reason

[Freightman]

Back to the OP, yeah I think there are some minimal guidelines.

1. Protect the game
2. Protect the game
3. Only give information to people who can handle it
4. Don't ever publicly discuss what a play looks like, or how to snap off a play
5. Don't out other APs
6. If you do business with other people, be honest
7. Don't start trouble with people for no reason

Good thoughts

[KJ]

He's a legit pro, so therefore his extremely aggressive approach is correct?

Ummm....WTF mooman? Where did I say anything along those lines? My own position is exactly opposite Tbonz, which I clearly articulated both before and after his post.

You claim a soft spot for this site, yet you have died on it

Completely false, Freightman. But I wouldn't expect you to let that stop you from using it to attack me. The incident that you are attempting to reference occurred on another site, prior to the opening of this site. But, you knew that. You just wanted to sink to a new low. Congrats on that. You are a class act. You don't deserve the dignity of a reply from me, and will get non going forward.

I sort of expected Norm or even T3 or Flash or one of the other members dating back to the other site would have chimed in to state this was false and did not occur on this site, but I guess I am not surprised that no one came to my defense.

As for your rating it looks like when you attack people you get a poor rating and when you help people you get a good rating. I don't know why you are surprised that you get bad ratings when you shifted from a helpful and respectful poster to a more attacking poster. I think you would be smart enough to expect that. I don't see any helpful posts of yours being rated unhelpful. Only this new KJ that attacks people. You didn't use to do that and your helpful ratings reflected that. Did you think people would vote based on anything else? Go back to be a get along and helpful poster and I bet your ratings will reflect that. You never used to post the way a good percentage of your posts are now. I think the ratings just reflect a change in the quality of your average post. You still post some good ones but you are opening the door for bad ratings by the spirit of many of your posts. It used to be almost all of your posts were good ones. Why don't you take a look at what posts got rated bad and try to understand why rather than jumping to conclusions about a conspiracy. Next thing you know you will be posting with all the conspiracy nuts at the paranoid site.

T3, I will respond to you because your post was civil and I believe meant with good intent.

Where did I attack anyone in this thread that warranted negative ratings?

This is a thread entitled 'AP protocols'. This topic, like tipping and even the ever popular count debate, has two very distinct camps. I personally, am not in the camp expressed by Tbonz, but I recognize that many, even most of the really successful players feel that way.

My objection isn't about the opinion. It is about the responses to that persons opinion. Responses like, “low-life”, “narcissistic”, “predatory”, “antisocial”, “dumb-ass”, “scum” and “whore monger”, as well inferring this poster will have no one at his funeral.

Is that the way the site works? You don't agree with the posters opinion or style, you are free to go off like that?

Now about your “elitist attitude” reference, T3. Yes, I do put extra stock in players that have achieved a certain level of success. That doesn't mean, they are always right. It doesn't mean, I agree with everything they say. But I damn well want to hear what they have to say and have the opportunity to consider it.

In this case, we are talking a truly elite player and team organizer/manager. A guy with tens of millions of dollars in earnings. I want to hear what he has to say every chance I get, just as I have for 8 years or so. EVEN if I don't agree with him on a specific topic as this. I want to encourage him to participate more, not see responses like “low life”, “dumb-ass”, “whore monger” and suggestions that he will die without friends simply because someone doesn't agree with his opinion.

And because I express that disappointment in those responses, I get high unhelpful ratings. You, T3 are the one that brought up 'cliques' and that is 100% what has occurred. Although I am sure, norm has the best of intent, this rating thing always had the potential to be a popularity contest.

I have spent years helping newer players, just as some did for me, early on. I take that seriously. So seriously, that I have had a number of players on several different sites tell me the play professionally now, directly because of my posts. Three different players even up and relocated to Las Vegas, just as I had done. I mean, is that in any way good for me?? No, of course not. But I try to help by sharing my experiences.

And I had a very impressive helpful rating to show for that, which I was proud of. Well over 90% and even much greater numbers before I deleted 6 months of my posts from the first half of the year. But now, frequently when I post, my posts receive a unhelpful vote, not because of content, just because of personality issues. THAT is where we are now at, sadly.

[Bodarc]

I do what the heck I want to do. One of the things I do not do is bicker back and forth like children. If you want to use protocols, use them. If you don't then don't. Who gives a crap what you do!

[Norm]

Somebody can restart this thread without the baggage.

Thread closed.