AP protocols

[Orangechip2]

I was playing a nice heads up game yesterday with a counter friendly dealer. Some dickwad came up behind me, standing there like a vulture fir a couple of shoes. I asked him if he was playing, and if not, would he kindly buzz off. Petzel head just stood there with a blank look on his face.

It had to be clear to this putz that I'm counting - so - what does this schlemiel do? The schmendrick hops in at a positive count and pounds 2 hands at 50. Least thimble dick could have done was to put down a proper spread. I made a subtle comment to him, as is my want to do, but the schmuck didn't get the message, or rather, didn't want to, instead, spreading to 3x125 (5 times min) I had significantly more on the table. Shithead was eating up great cards with a low spread.

Anyways, peckerhead had totally pissed me off - clearly having no clue. Notwithstanding his total lack of index play, his manner mirrored that of swine dining in the pigpen. Shoe ending, I coloured up, subtly mentioning that i didn't want to play with this asshole. Funny thing was - he got up as well.

Question, even with shithead totally ignoring AP protocol, should I have left in a positive shoe - and for that matter, could I have been more assertive in my subtle comments?

Tongue in cheek post.

for betting that amount you surely weren't playing red chips, so why not ask for a nmse sign from the beginning ? If you Wong out occasionally then I understandwhy you wouldn't ask. As to ignoring protocol, half the APs I've met don't tip dealers. Do you really think they care what another guy/gal who is playing on their home store is concerned about ? Negative . When I was building my roll (not long ago but many playing hours ago) I did WHATEVER got the money . If you weren't part of my come up, then you were irrelevant . I won't sit at a table with another AP for multiple shoes, but if I happen to stumble upon a NMSE game and we both start spreading I leave . Back to the wonger; I've had people I didn't know come blasting into my games 3x500 while I had a rinky dink max bet out (again, many playing hours ago) but I knew exactly what was happening .. So I finished the shoe, colored up as rolled . This has happened 3-4x playing a mse/ 5-10-15 tables .. It comes with te game . On another note, I'd be pissed too if a guy stood behind me for multipe new shoes, got in on a big RC and didnt atleast perfect the common indices . I think this guy was a total square - I doubt he was playing with any kind of advantage .

[Three]

Not to highjack, but was thinking about this issue and reading https://www.blackjackincolor.com/othereffects1.htm, which suggests some capture of value by the wonger, but also shows that win rate goes down dramatically at TC +5. Am I stupid that I thought increasing TC meant increasing advantage? Can Norm answer this? I can see why win rate would go down at astronomical +TC because of all the pushes, but wouldn't have thought it would be so early. Am I reading this wrong?

I believe the graphs shows win rate in dollars not percent. Win rate in dollars per true count is affected by bet size and TC frequency. Win rate in % is not weighted by either of these factors.

[cjjellie]

I don't knew if this should be a new thread, but it kind of fits here...

I'm fairly new to this, and was mildly chastised for shadowing and AP's bet. It was literally my second time playing BJ, and I meant no harm, but I see now why that was dumb. I've also Wonged in on good shoes at my local casino. I've never done it when there was only one other player, but that's just been coincidence more than etiquette.

So my question... Are there some general AP etiquette guidelines? Also, I've noticed others trying to count both locally and when I travel. Would you ever let them know you could tell? (In my mind, if I can tell anyone can tell...) In a nutshell, is there some protocol we novices should know about?

[cjjellie]

To clarify...I'm assuming everyone is good intentioned, as I am. I'm not assuming anyone is intentionally out to burn someone else, or ruin another person's game. I just want to make sure I do the right thing... When I've encountered genuine a-holes at a table, I just leave. They aren't worth my time to worry about, and I'm not going to attempt to educate them. That's their mama's job.

[Cougfan]

I have very rarely encountered an AP jumping in to my shoes. Usually it is a ploppy betting table min. Still annoying, but they can be useful since it is a good excuse to sit out in disgust (if the count is bad), or add another hand to preserve the flow of the cards (if the count is good).

My most annoying experience was a ploppy who was just an annoying A-hole. He took forever to make decisions, asked for advice and then debated whoever gave him that advice, and was playing table min. After 2 hands, I left the table (negative count). Four hands into my shoe at another table, same guy jumps in. He ended up following me to 5 tables that night and then found me the next afternoon at another casino. It was all I could do not to punch him in the face.

[KJ]

AP or counter "etiquette" is pretty much a thing of the past. When I was learning the game and devouring all those many books from late last decade that we all read, I read about AP/counter etiquette in several of them. But early on when I made some reference to it on BJ21, the big boys jumped all over me. The message was pretty much that they are entitled to jump into any game they like, but if another AP/counter does that to them, they will do whatever necessary to stop it. A real 'macho' type thing.

I personally don't adhere to that sentiment. Because two counter raising and lower bets in unison is a real bad situation and needs to be avoided, if I find I have entered a game with another counter, I will still yield to him/her and exit. I believe that is common courtesy, even if others don't.

With wong-ins, I will not jump into a shoe, where I have identified another counter.

Unfortunately, often you don't realize another player is raising with the count until the count is rising. If you play off the top of a shoe, you will realize it about they same time as they do, when you both start to raise your wagers. I those situations, I will not walk away from a strong shoe. I will finish out the shoe and then immediately exit. That is the best I can do.

[Freightman]

for betting that amount you surely weren't playing red chips, so why not ask for a nmse sign from the beginning ? If you Wong out occasionally then I understandwhy you wouldn't ask. As to ignoring protocol, half the APs I've met don't tip dealers. Do you really think they care what another guy/gal who is playing on their home store is concerned about ? Negative . When I was building my roll (not long ago but many playing hours ago) I did WHATEVER got the money . If you weren't part of my come up, then you were irrelevant . I won't sit at a table with another AP for multiple shoes, but if I happen to stumble upon a NMSE game and we both start spreading I leave . Back to the wonger; I've had people I didn't know come blasting into my games 3x500 while I had a rinky dink max bet out (again, many playing hours ago) but I knew exactly what was happening .. So I finished the shoe, colored up as rolled . This has happened 3-4x playing a mse/ 5-10-15 tables .. It comes with te game . On another note, I'd be pissed too if a guy stood behind me for multipe new shoes, got in on a big RC and didnt atleast perfect the common indices . I think this guy was a total square - I doubt he was playing with any kind of advantage .

Your pretty close. This store has a hi limit, 1 table only with NMSE. Table was full, and I requested a same stakes table in the lower bowl. However, the lower bowl rules applied and I was unable to get NMSE. Your also correct that mini brain played a losing game, not prepared to make the proper decision when the desired cards did not materialize. Truly, shit for brains, including etiquette.

[Freightman]

To clarify...I'm assuming everyone is good intentioned, as I am. I'm not assuming anyone is intentionally out to burn someone else, or ruin another person's game. I just want to make sure I do the right thing... When I've encountered genuine a-holes at a table, I just leave. They aren't worth my time to worry about, and I'm not going to attempt to educate them. That's their mama's job.

Your pretty green at this, and I think you previously posted that you mirrored a suspected AP's bets, essentially on a hunch. I recall doing the exact same thing. There is a huge difference between a well mannered person at the table vs. some asshole that you can't stand before he sits down.

I know I'm soft shoeing my comments - I'm really far to shy to express my true thoughts

[Three]

Those double standard types lose all credibility in my book. All the do is show they are seriously flawed human beings whose advice and approval should be looked at with a jaundiced eye. Basically they say how bad it is to do something to them and then say they would do it at the drop of the hat to others. That should be all you need to know about them. People like that tend to be miserable people as you can lie to your conscious mind to justify any behavior but your subconscious mind judges you just the same way as you judge the same behavior in others unless of course you are a psychopath. As a result these people hate themselves deep down and attack people at the drop of a hat without remorse. I have never been to the secret forum on that site but from the sounds of how these people run their lives it is probably just an attack fest with a click of twisted individuals that make each others justifications seem okay.

The trouble is your subconscious mind is not fooled by any justification. If you feel something is wrong when it is done to you, your subconscious mind will tear you a new one in your head when you do it to others. Again this all depends on you not being a psychopath. A sociopath does these things but a psychopath has no emotional attachments and would have no problem doing the same things without the need to attack others. Most people that do to others what they hate having done to themselves are either psychopaths or sociopaths. The difference between them is how it messes with the individual doing what they know is not right when it is done to them. Sociopaths have a subconscious moral monitor that a psychopath does not.

So I wouldn't try to conform to the sociopath click's ideas of "counter etiquette" or more accurately the double standard that defines the click to begin with. You will end up as angry and socially bizarre as they are. Just do the smart move and what you would want others to do to you. It might not be the BJ AP move but it is the AP move in life. That is the big game that will define your happiness or misery. The question is do you want to be happy in your own skin or have your subconscious mind beat you up for being the a-hole you hate when you see the same behavior in others. It is easy to see you will hate yourself equally at a level of the brain you have no control over, unless of course you are a psychopath.

[Freightman]

AP or counter "etiquette" is pretty much a thing of the past. When I was learning the game and devouring all those many books from late last decade that we all read, I read about AP/counter etiquette in several of them. But early on when I made some reference to it on BJ21, the big boys jumped all over me. The message was pretty much that they are entitled to jump into any game they like, but if another AP/counter does that to them, they will do whatever necessary to stop it. A real 'macho' type thing.

I personally don't adhere to that sentiment. Because two counter raising and lower bets in unison is a real bad situation and needs to be avoided, if I find I have entered a game with another counter, I will still yield to him/her and exit. I believe that is common courtesy, even if others don't.

With wong-ins, I will not jump into a shoe, where I have identified another counter.

Unfortunately, often you don't realize another player is raising with the count until the count is rising. If you play off the top of a shoe, you will realize it about they same time as they do, when you both start to raise your wagers. I those situations, I will not walk away from a strong shoe. I will finish out the shoe and then immediately exit. That is the best I can do.

You've raised an interesting point here. It's not only identifying a counter at the table who they'll to start to rise, it's identifying a counter before the first card is played.

A couple of examples. Before I truly understood protocol, I spotted a fellow,of all things, playing craps next to my dad. There was simply something about him. After a few minutes, he went to play blackjack, and I joined him mid shoe, essentially doing a little fishing. Long story short - this fellow encouraged me to switch to halves, taught me the basics of shuffle tracking, and the bare rudiments of team play. During the team lessons, he called me over at the start of a shoe, which didn't make sense, and essentially told me - the aces are going to flow, and they did.

I was in Vegas at the end of July, sat down. The fellow next to me encouraged me to join in - on a hunch, I decided not to. Nothing spectacular going on, except a lot of table min bets. Start of next shoe, he had crowded me into 1 spot. I asked him to play a square over,since I occasionally. Liked to p,lay 2. I got a dirty look. It was evident to each other very quickly, and he discreetly gave me his email. Interestingly enough, he had just moved to the city which I am now on my way home from, so, I don't think any of the local pros, except for maybe one know this fellow. We had coffee on Saturday.

[Orangechip2]

Your pretty close. This store has a hi limit, 1 table only with NMSE. Table was full, and I requested a same stakes table in the lower bowl. However, the lower bowl rules applied and I was unable to get NMSE.

makes sense. not much you could of done then in this scenario.

[Orangechip2]

So my question... Are there some general AP etiquette guidelines?

if your building a roll - no, none at all, do whatever gets you the proper bankroll that you need to comfortably play.
if your playing with an 'already made' bankroll - I don't think this would apply to you but if you happen to gather some ideas and you can gain an edge with slightly higher stakes out, why not i dont think your concerned much with etiquette or other peoples opinions at the table.
if your playing with a huge roll - This would more than likely never be the scenario, as you would do things to prevent someone bombing your game [OR] you would be the one doing the bombing.....

In a nut shell, no none at all... Not that I've seen anyways.

Everything above pertains to the OP.

[ZenKinG]

I thought I made it reasonably clear that dung heap was a counter, and quite likely the dumbest dickwad I've ever seen. Peanut Brain, when he Wongs in, pulls out his wad (no, not that one) and pulls 2 or 300 from what seemed to be a 5k folded stash. Ploppies don't carry that kind of cash. With a monster count, he spreads from 2x50 to 3x25, with lots of cash. This guy is a qualified candidate for a frontal lobotomy. It was a process that he repeated a couple of times, no doubt aided by his fear of making the right play, preferring the ridiculous approach likely praying for the never ending miracle he do desperately craved.

There are some who may construe that he did not make my favoured top 64 list of preferred table mates. You may give yourself a star, if that is in fact the case.

I know where you're coming from, and I know what it feels like when some random idiot comes into your game at a high count and wins every hand while you lose every hand, especially when you were winning prior to that. With that being said, this doesn't really happen to me anymore though. What I do is I POLITELY ask the guy who wants to enter if he could please wait until the end of the shoe. You'll be surprised that when you treat someone with respect, 9 out of 10 times, they will honor your request. If you treat someone like garbage, they will bark right back at you and in this case, they will just enter the game in spite because they know it will anger you more. Isaac Newton said it best, "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Try it out, Freight, you will be surprised how well it works. Let's also not forget, you're surrounded by 'gamblers', they all have superstitions, and they will think that your request for them to not enter is because you are winning and that you dont want them to mess up the 'flow of the cards'. This superstition would be an added reason for them to be generous to you because they know the pain of someone entering and messing up their winning streak due to 'flow of the cards' being completely changed. Of course there is always the occasional jerk off, who will jump in regardless, maybe he's a counter with no etiquette like you mentioned, or maybe hes just a clueless drunk who didnt even notice what you said. But from my experience, a simple polite gesture to the guy entering, will almost every time prevent the guy from coming into your heads up game.

With all this being said, I know you're an experienced player and you don't need me lecturing you on this, but you should know that the math is what it is. Someone entering your game will have NO effect on your long term results. Just because it's a big count, doesn't mean the 'big' cards are in front of the cut card, they could easily be behind the cut card and you wont even see those + rounds. Also, that player who jumps into your game could've easily saved you from losing 10 max bets in a row, as well as take all the small cards, while you continue to get blackjacks and heavy double down max bet wins. Dont get caught up with all of this, yes it will hurt your SHORT term results, but if you're worried about short term, you probably have a small bankroll and there's bigger problems that need to be addressed first and foremost. I know you've been playing for a while, and you have a big roll, so I know that's not your problem, so forget about it and keep your mind on what matters and what matters is the old cliche "THE LONG RUN". Good luck Freight.