I used to think you guys were right and I was just a gambler but it's been 2 years now and I am still up, 6 losing months, 17 winning ones. So, while maybe not a very proficient AP, I think the HiLo and I-18 and enough discipline makes me an AP and not a gambler. By the way, to this day, I have never ever played slots, craps or any carnival game or anything else in a casino besides BJ. Gamblers would try other games too.Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash
Back to theme of original poster: Stealth, you mention a "defined certification process". WITHOUT having a team procedure or just two AP player associates "testing" each other out, what process would you suggest for a solo player to test his qualifications with or without Verite? I think that playing in a casino can be an expensive "internship" but playing at low limit games DOES give you the experience of battle without costing too much.
Second, there are two books I have enjoyed. One was Blackjack Blueprint by Blaine. Which Munchkin now recommends as a "training" book to aspiring counters. The other is Bootleggers 200 Proof Blackjack by Turner (who I understand is deceased now (?) ). Both give a training approach to learning counting.
While I think/thought I am a "counter" for purposes of playing BJ, one thing I have learned from this site and reading BJAIII, is that I don't or didn't spread enough to actually make optimum gains from playing. But I'm still learning and becoming more accomplished. But that doesn't mean mistakes are not made.
So do you guys have a learning approach or "certification" process that can make someone "FEEL" more like they have graduated.............other than just winning money?
"Women and cats will do as they please, and Men and dogs should just relax and get used to the idea" --- Robert A. Heinlein
Checking out players is a "layered" process.
First technically:
1. Player should complete a blank grid for basic strategy for Stand 17 multi deck. They are also required to know variations for Hit. Any error is an automatic failure.
2. Player should complete a blank grid with his/her indexes. We required minimum of Ill18/Fab4 but encouraged as many as you knew but you would be tested in live simulation play using your indexes.
3. Players were asked to remove one card from a deck and to count the remaining cards down using hilo in less than 30 seconds. Repeat five times with no errors. Any error required a restart of this test, two errors required a 24 hour wait to retest.
4. Players should play two hands live from a 6 deck shoes with the dealer making mistakes, mis-pays, and a playing partner while betting correctly with a ramp of units=TC+1. Two counting errors were allowed for a total of not more than 3 RC. Any error or combination of errors totaling more than RC 3 required restart of test. Any basic strategy error was an automatic fail. Failure twice required 24 hour wait to retest.
5. Take player to casino and play at low stakes using the same bet ramp. Play with and observe accuracy, comfort and effectiveness. Provide feedback on casino comportment and performance, retest if needed.
Playing skills:
6. We would also conduct role playing for passing signals, use of phone texting, sessions reporting various other team related protocols like bet ramps, session bankrolls, buy in amounts, moving money between players, etc.
7. Conduct session on surveillance. How to recognize heat, what to do. Instructions for a back off. Cashier protocols. Providing identification.
Ongoing:
As a monthly checkout to insure continued competency, require players to use CV, setup to the same options, to play three shoes while recording in the log which provides a date and time stamp. Export
the excel log and email to team manager for review. In fact, this concept works very well "interview" qualifier before ever getting involved with a new player.
There is a whole additional layer to progress from back counter to spotter to big player that is more role playing and the progression is judgmental by team management and key players. Not everyone is a quarterback. For example, players that appear to be very young are not well suited for entering a game as BP and flat betting 2X800. Finding players with the right persona to place large bets is not always easy. This opens the whole art form of getting away with it.
I will add that it is usually considered an intimidating process. Rare for someone to pass the entire thing first time. Your weakness's are exposed to your peers and not many of us like that. Try to make it a fun experience and tone down the intimidation factor.
When a team is involved many issues arise that are not present with lone wolf or even a two man team. This is intended to provide some insight into some of that, but not intended to be all encompassing. Lot's of other things to consider when it becomes a team.
PM me if you want to discuss in more detail.
Patience and Precision!
Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!
First, I am not an attorney and my comments are my opinion and may not serve all well. Bob Nersesian is a Las Vegas attorney that can help if you have a serious problem.
There is no value to any communications with a casino employee, either pit or security, after you have been tapped for either a back off or a trespass. My recommended protocol is:
1. Maybe color up at the table if you have a large quantity of chips, but avoid this if possible.
2. When informed of their action, respond that you are leaving the casino now. Nothing else. Get up and begin to move to the nearest exit.
3. If asked for ID, ignore them, put your chips in your pocket and begin to move deliberately and quickly to the nearest exit.
4. Do not cash in your chips, leave the property (not just the casino) and do not go to your car if it is on the property. If you do, you and your car and your car license number will be in OSN within two days.
If your are detained, you should continue repeating that you are leaving the property and if they continue to detain you, ask them very clearly and distinctly if you have committed a crime. Repeat this question throughout the detainment. Maintain a even keel throughout the event. Never lose your cool, never curse or touch any of them. Your "matter-of-fact attitude will drive them crazy while providing no trigger for them to escalate.
Do not answer questions, tell them you are calling your lawyer and call him (I keep Nersesian's number on speed dial). If appropriate tell them you are calling gaming (it's on speed dial) and call them. If they have taken your phone, keep repeating you want to leave and you want to call your lawyer and/or gaming. Remember, all of this is on tape if needed in the future, so be sure to make your side of this very clear.
If you are asked by a identified police officer for your ID, then give it to him (not complying to a policeman is very bad) while stating very clearly that you do not want your identification given to the casino. Most likely, and in my experience, he will hand it to the pit boss as soon as you give it to him (especially in Indian stores), ignoring your request. In fact, triple your concern when you are in a Indian store. Their lack of accountability to the US legal and justice system give them latitudes you might not like during this event.
In summary, there is nothing to be gained from resisting this event (unless it becomes illegal detainment, assault, etc), so stop whining, suck it up, minimize the damage and leave.
Now, at the cage there are some additional concerns. Most casinos have a limit on the amount they will cash out without getting a ID. Local Vegas stores are about 2K, strip stores are 3-10K all varying by store and high limit room cashiers, etc. While the pit may have called the cashier to ID you after you left the table this is not always the case. All the casinos are being pressure to file SAR (Suspicious Activity Reports) if they think you are structuring to avoid the 10K cash reporting limit. The problem is that the 10K limit is a very clear amount and condition, the SAR's trigger is judgmental and we all know what a great job casino management does with judgement (couldn't resist). So, I am not advising you structure but that you be aware of the protocols they are following and insure your compliance. Check out Tommy Hyland's latest episode with the feds regarding structuring, not pretty.
We might not like it, but the laws allow them to bar us from their properties for any reason or for no reason at all.
Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!
Another excellent post - just wanted clarification. A few comments. Number 4 above relating to Vegas or other venues where you are driving a rental car - wouldn't worry about them. They would need to go to a lot of effort to identify you. For those with back problems or walking problems, common good practice is not to use valet. A scenario unfortunately not practical to all. This applies to myself as well. I make sure that my rental contract is not in my car - will give my middle name (which easily passes as a last name) and proceed in that basis.
I've never been detained, however, I don't stand up when being asked to - simply spin around in my chair and ask what I can do for you. In other words, the dirty deed needs to be done in front if ploppies, that in itself makes them behave. I also keep Nersesian in speed dial.
As you've stated - above all else - be cool.
This is NOT copyrighted material; so Norm should not have a problem with my sharing it.
It is the "M.I.T. BJ Team Procedure Manual"
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dkfy6vt7zu...anual.pdf?dl=0
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