Great Advice and letting no good deeds go unpunished

[Oneoffthecount]

My thanks to all of the senior members for advice to get more live experience at low stakes and trying to kock the rust off before I go out there for serious play. I have gone to casinos, back counted and played some low stakes. Bottom line, I'm not a total schlep but I'm not as good as I thought I was on the computer. There were a number of times when I felt tentative and realized I was lacking in speed on decision making. I will continue live visits as part of my "extended trainig".

I often hear newibies asking, how do I know when I'm ready. I thought it might be good to get your thoughs on what might be good "check out" self tests to pass. I can count down a single deck in about 24 seconds. I know there are a numbe of other ones out there. I'd be interested to come up with some more standards for self test, particularly if they can use CVBJ drills. For example, I can usually get through 50 hands on the flashcard drill with an error about every other drill, one per hundred and speeds from 17 to 21 hands per minute, usually scoring in the 170 to 225 range, but don't know if that means I'm ready.

Your thoughts on what you would require for a check out if you were running a team or if you were coaching a new player are appreciated.

[Freightman]

My thanks to all of the senior members for advice to get more live experience at low stakes and trying to kock the rust off before I go out there for serious play. I have gone to casinos, back counted and played some low stakes. Bottom line, I'm not a total schlep but I'm not as good as I thought I was on the computer. There were a number of times when I felt tentative and realized I was lacking in speed on decision making. I will continue live visits as part of my "

I often hear newibies asking, how do I know when I'm ready. I thought it might be good to get your thoughs on what might be good "check out" self tests to pass. I can count down a single deck in about 24 seconds. I know there are a numbe of other ones out there. I'd be interested to come up with some more standards for self test, particularly if they can use CVBJ drills. For example, I can usually get through 50 hands on the flashcard drill with an error about every other drill, one per hundred and speeds from 17 to 21 hands per minute, usually scoring in the 170 to 225 range, but don't know if that means I'm ready.

Your thoughts on what you would require for a check out if you were running a team or if you were coaching a new player are appreciated.

Nothing beats "on the job" training. Go play at the store of your choice. Don't bother back counting for now - get as many hands in as you can playing all. As mentioned before, don't worry about setting the house on fire. Bet min with low spread. Just get used to it. Get basic down perfectly. Think about deviations from basic. Wongs professional blackjack has some terrific charts that you should refer to. Think you said you were playing hi lo. Try to learn to play fast, without errors. Test yourself with a deck(s) at home.

As you gain some confidence in your skill level, start slowly to increase your spread. Consider the cost of this approach as tuition, somewhat cheaper than playing full spread with to many errors.

[ZeeBabar]

Great advice. Sometimes, you win with just basic knowledge and tinkering with your game. A batting coach rushed up to correct a batters grip and stance saying to the batter, "You got it all wrong, your hands are not where they should be, your feet are too close together, you are not using your hips, blah blah" and the batter says, "But coach, look where the ball went, over the fence!!".

i never ever timed myself, don't even count like people do in practice. Over time, I learned to quickly cancel out cards and learned to get the count right I think. Judging by the results, I am doing okay. The decision making process improves over time ans relatively small errors can happen but keep on doing it live. I'm f your BR keeps growing, you know whatever you are doing is working.

there is a tendency to interpret bad variance as a result of something wrong with your game.

[Oneoffthecount]

Thanks to both of you. I'm a little surprised by the advice. After reading "A BlackJack Life" and some other things, it seemed like there was an extensive training program and check out process for the MIT players. I will be interested if any of the other team players see it the same way. I'm a solo practitioner, so who knows.

[Dieter]

There are weekend training seminars from time to time.

Probably one of the organizers of those could do a pretty good check-out, and you might even learn some other stuff.

[ZeeBabar]

Thanks to both of you. I'm a little surprised by the advice. After reading "A BlackJack Life" and some other things, it seemed like there was an extensive training program and check out process for the MIT players. I will be interested if any of the other team players see it the same way. I'm a solo practitioner, so who knows.

obviously, when there is team play and betting thousands of dollars, where the average bets are couple of hundreds or more. It's a good idea to get extensive training. However, if it's your own money, you are not qualifying for a team, have time on your hands, actual casino practice cannot be beat.

[Stealth]

there is a tendency to interpret bad variance as a result of something wrong with your game.

There is also an equal or greater tendency to interpret bad play as variance. Especially, if you can't tell the difference.

When your measure of success is only the actual results, then you are at risk for self delusions.

I would suggest completing a defined certification procedure as a new counter and prior to casino play is a very worthwhile, and in my view, necessary process.

Following that up with periodic (monthly?) checkouts are also necessary to create an assured continuity of skilled play. The cost of misplays, over/under betting and over estimating their own competence is a slippery slope. I believe the individual players that proceed without these assurances to themselves are taking a risk larger than the bankroll RoR.

What we do is mentally taxing and done in environments not conducive to concentration, when concentration and accuracy are mandatory skills. These need to be tested and constantly re-tested to assure they are effective. Do you know any pro sports people that don't practice and test their skills?

As I have stated before, if you want to gamble, then have it. I have no problem with that decision. Just don't promote it like it some minor leagues of card counters that are doing well because they are winning and crying when they have losing streaks and blame it all on variance. Bull shit.

Having certification protocols is a must for teams large and small. The certifications serves to validate the individuals skill level and to promote confidence in the individual from other team members. A very, very important feature among others.

[Stealth]

obviously, when there is team play and betting thousands of dollars, where the average bets are couple of hundreds or more. It's a good idea to get extensive training.

I really don't agree with this line of thinking.

It would seem to me that the money at risk is a relative importance to each the player, if it is a team player then it may be big chips, if an individual it may be red chips, but to both, their respective amounts are very important. Why then would I differentiate the team player from the individual when considering how much training they need? They are doing the same thing! Is your "little" money of less importance than the team money? Do you just care less if the money is smaller?

How do you know that you are not making three or more counting errors per shoe? How do you know you are not making playing errors? Index errors? overlooking dealer errors?

Is this like the security guy that told me "we have no undetected security breaches". Well no shit. Really??

[Three]

I agree with stealth on this one. Team play on a shared BR reaches n0 quickly. This is more forgiving of individual mistakes. If you play by yourself a weaker game or more mistakes increases RoR by a lot. It takes forever to play enough hands to repair the damage.

The main issue is mistakes you never know you make in most cases. Errors are issues that you made bad decisions based on the proper information. If you are making uncalculated errors you are really hurting yourself and if you are making mistakes for any reason it is bad. Unfortunately the only way to ferret out mistakes is to compare results to EV and decide if a long term pattern indicates mistakes are likely. That means knowing the EV of your actual play or knowing how to adjust sim results for the calculated errors that we call cover and any other calculated errors one might make. I assume any calculated errors like deviating from the planned betting scheme or cover plays are only made once the cost/benefit of such a play is factored into the decision. I find it troublesome that it is obvious from reading posts that this is to often not the case.

[Oneoffthecount]

Just an update. I played for about two months twice a week and started with a $1200 bankroll which I fully expected to lose. I didn't and won about 1800 while training. Finalized money from my divorce settlement and had access to the 70k, I have always budgeted. Inched my ramp up from a max of one of 50 or 75 to two of 150 and won $2870 in my first week of operations. Moving to 2 x 200, next week. I know this means nothing other than I had some great positive variance, but I am sincerely glad that I'm hitting the positive side of the bell curve early on. It's nice to fortify my bankroll before the negative days show up.

Thanks again for the help and advice. Its only a start but at least three steps into the marathon I'm leading versus losing. Feels pretty damn good actually.

[ZeeBabar]

I really don't agree with this line of thinking.

It would seem to me that the money at risk is a relative importance to each the player, if it is a team player then it may be big chips, if an individual it may be red chips, but to both, their respective amounts are very important. Why then would I differentiate the team player from the individual when considering how much training they need? They are doing the same thing! Is your "little" money of less importance than the team money? Do you just care less if the money is smaller?

How do you know that you are not making three or more counting errors per shoe? How do you know you are not making playing errors? Index errors? overlooking dealer errors?

Is this like the security guy that told me "we have no undetected security breaches". Well no shit. Really??

First, I was not talking about teams. I dont know anything about teams. I dont know much about full time AP's either other than what I read here. I only know about a recreational counter like me. My BR to-date tells me that I am winning overall. My mistakes occur in positive situations and I believe these relate to under-betting or betting less optimally than I should. My fight is against my natural inclination and personality which is a very frugal one. For example, I play DD games with a spread or 1-6 to 1-8. On bets requiring 1-5 units I do fine but when a max TC opportunity comes and I could get away with a 1-8 spread, often I still put out 5 units or 4 units and thus win less. Since I play rated, these things may have helped me longevity wise but it has certainly decreased my win amounts.

[Stealth]

First, I was not talking about teams. I dont know anything about teams. I dont know much about full time AP's either other than what I read here. I only know about a recreational counter like me. My BR to-date tells me that I am winning overall. My mistakes occur in positive situations and I believe these relate to under-betting or betting less optimally than I should. My fight is against my natural inclination and personality which is a very frugal one.

I am good with you being a recreational gambler, in fact, I suspect that is a highly accurate statement. My conclusion is that you are a gambler while role playing as an advantage player and mixing up the two.

Happy variance, you may need it.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

" ...you are a gambler while role playing as an advantage player and mixing up the two."

Oh yeah. VERY well said.