Oklahoma civil forfeiture reform hearing

**Member Name Hidden** · 09-01-2015, 07:08 AM

http://www.oksenate.gov/news/listen.aspx

There is a public hearing ongoing now at the Oklahoma state Capitol, which will run throughout the day. It is in room 419C. Hopefully you can find the stream through this link.

**MJGolf** · 09-01-2015, 07:15 AM

Yes; been on news here. Several bills that have NOT made it out of committee to try to "reign in" LE a bit. They are not trying to prohibit forfeiture but make sure their is probable cause. Many, many in the LE community are fighting and lobbying against it at the moment. This hearing is supposed to try to reach some middle ground. Supposedly the vast majority of cases of forfeiture do NOT result in charges being filed. LE disputes that. I think that you really don't have an issue here with gambling cash. But most of the cash forfeitures truly are drug money. No BJ player I know carries that amount of cash sealed in plastic and hidden in cars or Vans. But with I-40 and I-35 crossing here, there is a lot of drug traffic.............. probably no different than any interstate in any state I guess, though.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 09-01-2015, 08:17 AM

MJgolf,

"LE" must mean "Law Enforcement."

Good Post.

**Stealth** · 09-01-2015, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by MJGolf

No BJ player I know carries that amount of cash sealed in plastic and hidden in cars or Vans.

Actually, many BJ players do all over the country and this unconstitutional practice of confiscation without probable cause and the right to trial is bullshit. There are several BJ cases that have been documented and some reported by "Gambling with and edge". Do not underestimate the negative effect of this if you are traveling by car. Arizona is notorious.

Research the stats on this practice by law enforcement and you will find it to be their "free money" for new guns/cars/toys/cameras etc.

Do whatever you can to voice an opinion and influence this and any other outcomes about this subject!

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 09-01-2015, 09:16 AM

My method of dealing with potential cash seizures:

I frequently travel with (middle) five (5) figures in cash.
I generate regular CTR's at my Federal Credit Union
on purpose. I always take and carry printed receipts.
IF I am stopped, it is simple to show recent and dated
bank receipts [totaling about a million dollars]; which is
taken to be proof positive that I have a "paper trail"
as the cash is being moved into and out of a personal
Money Market Account.

What could look more law-abiding than that ?

**MJGolf** · 09-01-2015, 10:22 AM

This I agree with Zen. And also, the GWE program that was in detail about a car stop of some AP's with "out of state" tag, resulted in questioning but their cash was NOT seized. I have no personal knowledge about Arizona and I think that it is WORSE there than here. I have personally witnessed drug busts with the cash. There is NO WAY that any usual or normal AP IN MY OPINION (your mileage may vary) would be carrying cash IN similar amounts; and in similar methods. We may secure our cash but it will NOT be wrapped or transported like DRUG cash. I don't disagree with Stealth that these forfeitures are unconstitutional.

BUT truthfully I'm hoping that our legislature DOES indeed pass a bill "strengthening" LE (yes law enforcement acronym) procedures or restrictions on them so they do NOT feel as comfortable "just taking" someone's cash. Honestly with the proliferation of casinos around our state, it's NOT unusual any more. They DO understand needing cash to gamble. But I DO state that what one person may think is a lot of cash may be different from what someone else thinks is a lot of cash.

**Bodarc** · 09-01-2015, 02:28 PM

In TN the news agencies reviewed the traffic stopping results over a period of time. Drugs run west to east and money flows east to west. There were 10 times more stops on the money direction as there were on the drug direction. Clearly the officers were after the money instead of the drugs. If they can locate the money, they can locate the drugs. Stop confiscating money and confiscate the drugs and prosecute the people breaking the law. As long as a person can prove ownership of the money, no law has been broken by transporting it. It is only after drugs are purchased that a law has been broken.

**Marlene** · 09-01-2015, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Bodarc

In TN the news agencies reviewed the traffic stopping results over a period of time. Drugs run west to east and money flows east to west. There were 10 times more stops on the money direction as there were on the drug direction. Clearly the officers were after the money instead of the drugs. If they can locate the money, they can locate the drugs. Stop confiscating money and confiscate the drugs and prosecute the people breaking the law. As long as a person can prove ownership of the money, no law has been broken by transporting it. It is only after drugs are purchased that a law has been broken.

The Nashville station even had footage of officers from different jurisdictions arguing over who got to confiscate the cash.

**MJGolf** · 09-01-2015, 04:13 PM

There IS something inherently wrong with direct monetary benefit to the "agency" that confiscates the cash. Not that you guys don't probably agree with this but "power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely." It just sticks in the craw as against the American Way. HOWEVER, I do NOT have much issue with them taking drug money. USUALLY you see the confiscation from some runner or coyote that "claims" they have NO knowledge of the cash "hidden" in their vehicle. It's QUITE a different story if you had cash from gambling as an AP and told them that story v. LACK of knowledge. I have spoken to LE before on some of these busts. The stories they tell of true drug money and what the runners say, would make you laugh.

**Stealth** · 09-01-2015, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

My method of dealing with potential cash seizures:

Good protocol.

Good post!

**Bodarc** · 09-01-2015, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

which is
taken to be proof positive that I have a "paper trail"
as the cash is being moved into and out of a personal
Money Market Account.

What could look more law-abiding than that ?

They will confiscate your cash Zen and it is then up to you to hire a lawyer and try to get it back. They are crooks after the money.

**moo321** · 09-02-2015, 10:34 AM

There is an organization you can support that aggressively fights these laws in court, and has been successful in many places.

https://www.ij.org/

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 09-02-2015, 12:13 PM

Bodarc,

You are wrong in this. They will confiscate nothing.
They will just move along to the next unwitting victim.
The PROOF of the legitimacy of the cash is self-evident.