Forced to give up ID & SS cashing out

[20 to 1 Spread]

Bought in for roughly $5000. Cashed out $9100 at the cage. Played unrated at a Vegas store on the strip. Asked for players card, I said I had none. They said you need one to cash this amount out. I said I don't want to give up my SS for fear of identity theft. They insisted I could not cash out this amount without players card (thus giving up all ID & SS). I eventually gave in.

Do I need to give up this information when cashing out amounts near $10K at vegas joints? Or should I have grabbed my chips back, go back slowly and break them down at other table games, and chip them out over time. [Problem was I had 1 day left in Vegas and it'll be a while before I return]

What were my optimal choices? Were they just BS'ing me? Could I have cashed out if I stayed firm and said I'm not giving up ID?

[RS]

I don't know what the optimal decision would have been, but I think the two (in this order) would suffice:

1) "No I don't need to show ID nor SSN to cash out."
2) "Call gaming, please."

[ZenMaster_Flash]

There is NO law requiring you to show your I.D.

It is merely their internal bookkeeping procedure.

It most typically kicks in at the $3,000 threshold.

Yes ... demand that they call Gaming Control.

That may not work in some places; and certainly

not at a casino that is a Native American Enterprise.

[moo321]

Don't try to cash out $9100 if you don't want to show ID.

There are also federal "structuring" laws to be aware of in this area, but most places will ask for ID for a $9100 cash out.

[Three]

They need to be prepared of multiple transactions that exceed the $10K limit. Your buy in at $5K probably made the ID requirement but you cash out certainly did. Many places the the threshold is $3K. Some places there is additional scrutiny for certain denomination chips. You have to know your stores. Request purple chips when you color up or only cash in purple or smaller. Remember the same sort of tracking for possible multiple buy-in transactions over the $10K aggregate also occurs. You need to adjust buy-in and cash outs for each stores policies.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

If you are suspected of "structuring" a total of $5,000 (in AND out)
-- transactions (in a gaming day) suffices for a report to be filed with
the Treasury Dept. That is a "Suspicious Transaction Report" (SAR)

[Norm]

Clearly if you trigger a W2G or CTR (or W2 or 1099 if you’re doing work for them), or opening an account, they must ask for a SSN. As I understand it, financial institutions, including casinos at least for customer accounts, must have a Customer Identification Procedure (CIP), mandated by the Patriot Act, which varies by institution. So, it may be their policy to ask for ID even when not federally required. Any business can ask for a SSN. Any person can refuse if the situation doesn’t require a SSN. But, the business then has the right to refuse service (assuming it isn’t a trick to get around anti-discrimination laws).

However, it seems to me that the casino has already accepted you as a customer by letting you buy-in. So, I don’t see how they have the right to refuse to cash-out.

But, IANAL and related law has been in flux.

[RS]

IANAL

Legally speaking, a $9100 cash-out [in it of itself] would not require an ID. If anything, the ID would be a casino protocol -- just like many will ask for ID for $3k+ cashouts. Of course, if you've already cashed out some amount ($900+) at some other time, previous to the $9100 cash-out, then an ID would be legally required for a CTR -- IF they were to a file a CTR on you [sometimes they don't file a CTR because they don't realize you've cashed-out $10K+ in a gaming day].

If I'm not mistaken... even if they suspect you of structuring and/or are going to file a SAR on you, an ID and SSN is still not required. Some information is required for the SAR, like date, time, amount, and physical description of the person. Name, address, SSN, etc. can be used IF ACQUIRED, but are not mandatory [unless acquired, then it is required]. After all, a SAR is confidential, meaning they are not allowed to tell ANYONE if they did or did not file a SAR on a specific person. I don't think gaming can intervene with a SAR -- ie: If a gaming officer asks a cashier attendant if they filed a SAR on a specific person, they cannot say one way or the other.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[moo321]

An SAR is a completely different thing. There is no $ amount involved. It's based on suspicion of a crime: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspic...ctivity_report

A CTR is based on having cash transactions of $10,000. Chip wagering is not a cash transaction, as long as no cash changes hands.

[AP360]

Bottom line, listen to previous posts. Stay under 3k mark, preferably under 2500 when cashing out. Keep denominations no higher than purple. Go to multiple cages, poker rooms, have friends/team mates help you cash out. Come back during different shifts.

Btw, do you walk with chips during beginning of trip or cash out after every session? If you walked out with chips, then you probably would not have needed to buy in for 5k unless running real bad from the start of session.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

moo321,

I was correct ~ the minimum sum of $5,000 must be met.

"... requires a SAR to be filed by a financial institution when the financial institution suspects insider abuse by an employee; violations of law aggregating over $5,000 where a subject can be identified;violations of law aggregating over $25,000 regardless of a potential subject; transactions aggregating $5,000 or more that involve potential money laundering or violations of the Bank Secrecy Act"

[LVBear584]

A CTR is based on having cash transactions of $10,000. Chip wagering is not a cash transaction, as long as no cash changes hands.

Minor quibble: A CTR is generated for amounts in excess of $10,000.

As to the main point in this thread, unfortunately the Nevada Gaming Control Board has stated on several occasions that it permits what it deems to be casinos' "reasonable" internal Title 31 machinations, even when such demands are applied unequally among patrons, or even classes of patrons (suspected AP's). However, the handing over of a Social Security number for $9100 would probably not be considered reasonable, though Gaming would probably allow a demand for ID and the refusal to cash without it. Often it depends on the individual agent who responds to the complaint.

Gone are the simpler Regulation 6A days, where these abuses were kept in check. With the expiration of Reg 6A and Nevada instead complying with Title 31, casino legal departments devised many new ways to "identify" and harass patrons. In fairness, much what we see as harassment and unreasonable privacy intrusions is, to the casino, a way of protecting itself from claims of negligence for money laundering and other nonsense accusations by government authorities. Witness the recent large fines levied against (if I recall correctly) MGM, I think Caesars and maybe Venetian for not being vigilant enough in the "anti money laundering" witch hunts.

As to the original poster's comment that a player's card reveals the SSN, why? A SSN is not required to get a player's card anywhere of which I am aware. If it is already on file because of previous W-2G's or other tax reporting by the casino, you are probably out of luck.

For the record, there is usually no harm in generating a CTR other than identifying yourself to the casino. In fact, many experts think it is preferable to generate at least a few during the year, including at your bank(s), to demonstrate that you are not trying to structure or otherwise hide "large" cash transactions from the government.

[biggg]

My accountant told me to always look to generate a CTR when making large cash deposits. Apparently CTRs are basically never investigated as they are standard but SARs are. And at least one bank I know of has an automatic SAR for anyone making multiple 3-10k deposits in a one month period.

As for the casino you played, rhymes with Daria I guess. Always just walk with black there...