It is a dead giveaway to anyone paying attention.
And if he was checking his card every time and shadowing your bets, you wouldn't be. Hope you didn't burn him.Originally Posted by cjjellie
If you're going to keep playing, build a bankroll. It doesn't have to be huge if you're playing for pocket money.
May the cards fall in your favor.
The required bankroll is function of your desired EV, game selection (rules, pen), as well as risk tolerance.
Unfortunately, red chipping on the strip is basically impossible, as I can't think of any playable game for a red chipper (without a massive spread, that is).
If you're semi-serious about BJ, I would build the bankroll to about $2.5-3kI haven't red-chipped in a while, but I imagine you could bet $10 in neutral counts, $5 in negative counts, and spread up to $40 or $50 in positive counts. And do this at off-strip casinos with $5 min on DD games, like Stations. I don't know how much it's worth, but I'd guess about $15-20/hour (assuming 100 rounds per hour). Yes a 50 max bet bankroll has a big risk of ruin. But I think 2.5k should be quite sufficient for a trip to LV.
If you're really serious, then I'd start simming different games and spreads until you find an hourly EV you like, determine a necessary bankroll, build the bankroll, then fire away. You can do everything using CVCX to sim the game and determine a required bankroll (as per your risk tolerance).
If you can replenish your bankroll (usually means you got a regular job and you can take some money from your paycheck every month and put it into your bankroll), then you can play as if you had a larger BR, even if you don't have that money right now.
I'd buy a few books (some people will probably recommend some) about bankroll, risk, etc. also read as much as possible online either in this forum or blackjackinfo.com. There's a lot of good information, but can be difficult to find since it's usually buried in long threads or back several pages.
"Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]
In the 1970's BJ games that were "positive off the top" could be had in Las Vegas and Atlantic City.
Low stakes games now come with a House Edge typically between 0.56% and 0.66% !
These dreadful games, assuming that you are skillful (preferably with a strong count)
and are not "backed off"for spreading your bets too aggressively, require a solid bankroll.
For a $10 better, depending on actual table conditions, (most crucial penetration and crowding) a
bankroll of $12,000 to $18,000 is needed to keep the Risk of Ruin tolerable while providing some
earnings - above minimum wage.
Last edited by ZenMaster_Flash; 08-20-2015 at 04:31 AM.
If you have a small BR, it is a MUST that you should be wonging the hell out of the games. It will keep your risk down as well as allowing you to grow your bankroll a lot more consistently due to the less volatile swings. You can even wong out aggressively off the top to get a nice early count with the whole table to yourself, just make sure you get out there at the most -1 TC. With HiLo you can wong in at +1 and have an edge right away, or you can play it a bit safer and wong in at +2, but after playing around with CVCX when I first encountered this dilemma, its actually more beneficial to wong in at +1, it cuts down the N0 slightly while also slightly elevating SCORE and win rate; yes the std deviation(variance) will be a little higher, but that's the price you pay to have a small bankroll anyway. The rules and pen will also be a major factor in your volatile swings.
A big thing to note as well, is avoid the BIG EV plays such as splitting tens or doubling a 10v10, yes those are huge profit plays, but also very volatile plays and for a small bankroll player, you dont need that theoretical high EV play, because it can severely damage your bankroll. Lastly, and I cant stress this enough, and Ive learned the hard way, is the biggest most important thing that new card counters do wrong at the start of their career is NOT bringing enough money for their trip. You should always be properly bankrolled to be able to split, double, etc for any play you encounter, if need be, if you don't have the funds, you are killing your advantage, if not throwing it all away. Also, of course, DO NOT use any type of cover when first starting out, you dont need to trick anyone betting red chips, do not alter your play and make dumb moves on purpose because you think you are attracting heat, it is completely unnecessary as the pit can care less about red chippers 99% of the time.
I also hope you realize you're just getting lucky, it takes about 600 hours or 3 months of full time play to be 'guaranteed' a profit, somewhere along that range depending on the playing conditions. Of course, it usually takes less than that, but to be fully sure of a profit, its around 600 hours. For you to think it's your job by playing such few hours, shows me how far you still need to go in educating yourself about what card counting actually is. You must be a perfectionist and you must seek out only the best games and best conditions, especially starting off with such a low BR. Avoid crowded tables and slow dealers, and PLAY RATED. Get as many comps as you can handle while still being a red chipper. Sometimes they'll even send you promotions and rebates through the mail which is huge for a low bankroll player. I never played rated even as a red chipper, but I probably should have because you really have nothing to lose, you wont get any heat, unless the place is a sweat shop, which is rare.
Yes CVCX, is the single best investment you have made, it's remarkable software. You should also look into getting Casino Verite and play by yourself and sharpen your abilities a couple of hours each day. When I started using Casino Verite and playing from time to time every day, it started correlating to success in the real world, I dont think it's a coincidence either, you might think you're sharp at counting, but you're never as good as you think you are, practice truly makes perfection. The interface is also a handy visual to plug into your mind while practicing hour after hour, because when you go to the real thing, it feels like you're still at home playing on your PC. Just my .02.
Good luck
Last edited by ZenKinG; 08-20-2015 at 07:08 PM.
Recommend that you sim the optimum Wong-out points based on the game's penetration. For instance, in a 6-deck game dealt to 5.5/6 or a DD game dealt to 1.5 out of 2, a CV Data sim will show that the optimum Wong-out point is closer to -3 or -4. Makes sense recognizing that with such a deep pen game, you could be passing up opportunities if you leave too early.
Hi everyone,
Thanks again for the great advice. I love getting on here and reading things I've never considered.
I do wong in and out somewhat aggressively, and I do practice a lot every day. There's absolutely ridiculous penetration where I play; this seems to offset the crappy rules. I haven't done any sims with different penetration to support it, that's just my observation. As such, I don't leave unless it's -3 on a 6 deck shoe. Tonight it looked like less than a deck cut off a couple of times.
Table crowding is hit or miss. Sometimes I can find an emptier one, but on the weekends it's generally full. Ditto for during the day. I don't think they have enough dealers, and the ones they do have seem inexperienced. Once I joined mid shoe with a +2 TC, only to play one hand before the cut card appeared. They had a dealer bread during the shoe, and the regular dealer said with disgust "so lazy! What did he get, three hands out of that?" and then she proceeded to cut less than a deck.
I do have a small bankroll, but I also have a good full time job so it's generally not an issue. As I play more, however, I'm learning that I'd make A LOT more if I viewed this as in investment.
I'm going to try to find a decent off strip game this weekend, and save up for a real trip to Vegas or Reno in a few months. Hopefully I'll have enough to play where I want by then. Who knows, this is a work junket... I may not be at the tables much anyway.
CJ
So here's what I learned...
As you've all stated, there are 3/2 tables and 6/5 tables. I was SHOCKED to see people playing green minimum at 6/5 tables, when there were 3/2 tables literally right next to them for the same price.
I wasn't able to go off strip, and only had 4 hours of real free time. The rest was dining and shows. I love/hate gambling, in that I won't play slots or roulette, but enjoy games of skill AND luck. I didn't want to play green when I clearly can't afford it, but I refused to play 6/5. In the end, I bought in for $200 at a $25 table with great rules. And I won over $700 in three hours.
Now I realize I got lucky. I haven't had this return ever; and frankly, don't expect it when I play next. But here's what I learned...
I can do it. I counted and played well, and chatted it up with a friend who came to watch and the other player at the table. I had the discipline to leave for a drink when the count went negative, and I back counted two tables before I went back in.
OTOH, I am not typically a green player, and I wasn't mentally prepared to bet so much. The first time I moved to $50 the dealer said loudly "moving to $50" and I thought I was going to choke from the imaginary heat. Then later in the shoe at a TC 8 (yeah, I know I was lucky) I had four chips out, and the dealer said "black action" my heart raced a bit, once again from the imaginary heat I was getting. In truth, I only saw the pit boss once all day. So I learned if I want to eventually play at this level, I've got to get a handle on bet spreads. I feel like I could have actually done A LOT better if I had the bank to bet more appropriately. Secondly, I need to get a bankroll so I don't panic betting a black chip. Lol
All in all a good day.
cjjellie,
You said,
" ... I moved to $50 the dealer said loudly "moving to $50" ... the imaginary heat. ... dealer said "black action" ... I only once saw the pit boss." So I learned if I want to eventually play at this level, I've got to get a handle on bet spreads. I feel like I could have actually done A LOT better if I had the bank to bet more appropriately"
COMMENTARY:
"Moving to $50."
In my 23+ years as a BJ Pro I have never heard such a thing!
It is clearly obvious that that was a very hostile dealer trying
to impress his superiors. You should have found another casino.
The lesson here has only a little to do with your remaining at
that table. It has everything to do with your being an obvious
amateur Card Counter. You were probably flashing your eyes
about, staring at the discard rack, and silently concentrating.
You also were betting the minimum and "moving to $50" only
when the count dictated the action. Once you have a reasonable
bankroll, you'll (hopefully) learn not to be so obvious. Better to
bet $50 "off the top" and spread UP and DOWN from there. That,
and some cover plays, camouflage, and a strong count will go a
long way to making you a successful player. In my opinion, you
ran into a sadistic dealer who was enjoying his attempt to shock
you and "bring you up short" by applying the heat.
Dealers are directed to call out "Black Action" because they need to keep
track of the exact count of high denomination chips in the dealer's rack.
The heat was NOT imaginary ! It was very real. You were not 86'd,
because your spread was not aggressive. Your (seeming) lack of
greed had saved you, but you'll probably be 86'd when you return,
even if it is many years from now !
Do not use term "PitBoss" when you are referring to a game supervisor,
what we term a "Pit Critter." You are unlikely to ever see to a Pit Boss.
Understand that when the "Eye In The Sky" (EITS) does a skills check on
you they often direct the Pit Critter to walk as far away as is convenient.
You spoke about feeling like you could have won more ...
You could have lost all of your cash. You could have been 86'd.
Greed Kills !
You need to learn pit procedures and what they mean. The call "moving to 50" means you are in a sweatshop. No reaction means the Floor isn't concerned yet. The Floorman is the guy in a suit you deal with most in the pit. The Pitboss may be assigned to several pits and you may rarely see him. Although watch to see if a phone call is made. It may be made with a cell phone. Black action is a call that is required to be made in almost every casino. Some places it is for a $100 bet others it is for betting black chips. Listen to how the dealer makes these calls. If it is very loud watch for a reaction. If you are a tipper or the dealer likes you it may be barely audible to even someone standing next to the dealer. Watch for the reaction from the Floor. Usually black action will at least get a glance to see if it means you are playing black. Black chips and higher must be accounted for. If you are playing black and the Floor has nothing better to do he may watch to track the chip exchanges. Most likely a glance will be to check the chip tray to see how much black is there when you start betting black. He may go to his terminal and enter the amount of black in the dealer's chip tray when you started betting black.
Now heat would be how the Floor reacts to the calls from the dealer. At some places that are particularly sweaty they will leave the pit to make calls to the EITS. Most places prefer you see the heat because they hope you will be smart enough to get the message and leave voluntarily before a back-off becomes necessary. A back-off is more work for them.
Get familiar with all the normal operations in the pit so you can tell the difference between heat and normal procedures.
Hi Zen,
Thanks for the buzzkill...
I doubt I'm obvious. I went from 25 to 50 after my second BJ in a row, and held it there. I only went to black when the other person on my table said "all in for the win" and pushed up $75. The time was right, so I followed with "go big or go home" and bet black. I did drop a couple times after a loss before that, and only went to $50 after a win.
I don't need to watch every card coming out to get an accurate count, and I don't need to constantly check the discard tray. In my real job, I do something similar so this kind of comes easily.
I'm telling you--I look like a ploppie.
My friend came to watch, and was reading the BS plays from the card to me. She was just having fun, and had no idea what I was doing, and no idea I didn't need her help. Even the dealer thought I was a rookie. At one point I had two 10s vs a dealer 5. she said split. I wasn't about to split, but with her "command" I started to because the count was so positive. The dealer jumped in and asked if she was reading it right, so we had a good laugh and I didn't split.
Even the dealer thought I needed help.
I do appreciate your advice, though. I wish there was some way for an experienced AP to watch me in real life and give honest feedback. Is the $3 offer still open? I'll do a lump sum for the next six months.Who knows, I may be sticking out like a sore thumb.
CJ
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