What Am I? & Tip Question!

[Cougfan]

I argue that you have some (low) obligation to tip. Toke rates are, to me, irrelevant to the ethical question of tipping, but I posted them for information. I think you are obligated to give someone a fair tip based on the service they provide.

If a guy is making $4 an hour brining your food to you, you owe him at least a few bucks for dinner. Similarly, if a guy is making $4 an hour to pitch cards to you and 6 other people, I think you probably owe him a couple bucks an hour.

You don't need to make him happy. You don't have to tip a fixed percentage. But I do think you're a jerk if you're not tipping at least $2 an hour, and your position is not well justified. I also think you're a jerk if you don't tip at a restaurant, or someone who brings you pizza.

Claims that management should just pay employees more are philosophical in their entirety, and also counterproductive. If casinos paid dealers $20 an hour, our jobs would be MUCH harder. Cut table games staff 1/2 to 2/3. $10 minimums at tiny Nevada casinos, $15 minimums in AC on a week day, and at least $25 minimums anywhere else. Places like Ohio and West Virginia, with high GGR tax rates, would probably have $50 minimums. Casinos would manage for full crowdedness (i.e. the AC model for the last few years). So, no heads-up. Hard to spread to multiple hands. Rules would immediately go to hell, with H17, 6:5, and even money BJs becoming common. $7-8 rake in the poker room. Little or no comps.

If anyone wants to disagree, I can prove the above propositions based on tax data from a number of states, as well as income statements from large casino corporations. There is absolutely no room for a company with single digit net profit % and high leverage to triple or quadruple their front-line labor costs without making extreme changes to their operations.

Moo - You certainly have a high level of concern for the actions of other people. I completely disagree with you on tipping dealers and yet I somehow can manage to not think of you as a "jerk". I am sorry that you have such a low opinion of me especially given that (I believe) we have never even met each other. I agree with you in general on tipping, but yet I also don't think that someone is a jerk if they have a different view. If they beat their wife or kids, then yes they are a bad person. If they don't give the kid at the Mc Donalds drive through an extra $5, then I really don't care all that much.

I also think you are misguided if you believe that casinos are not currently managing all aspects of their games (rules, minimums, scheduling) to maximize profitability. I doubt that we would see major changes to rules in particular if the casinos labor costs were to increase. I agree that there might be an increase to the lowest minimum tables ($5 in particular) as casino execs decide that certain tables just don't bring in enough money to justify the labor costs. A $25 min table would still be profitable even with a modest wage increase for the dealer, IMHO. That is unless the casino execs also decided to drive all the players away from that table through 6:5 payouts, or other similar nonsense.

One very specific, and very logical change that would make sense is a reduction of the time that dealers spend doing things other than dealing cards (e.g. shuffling). Auto-shufflers, and / or dealing deeper into the deck before shuffling are two ways that this could be done. Auto-shufflers cost the casino money. Dealing deeper does not.

As an aside, if tipping was to be completely abolished, why do you think that casino's would need to make up the full difference in their dealers wages? Currently, there is an excess supply of dealer labor, in general. That means the amount dealers make is greater than the equilibrium price. I highly doubt that we would see a shortage of semi-competent dealers if the wage at most places was more like $10 - $15 an hour.

[zergy]

Similarly, if a guy is making $4 an hour to pitch cards to you and 6 other people, I think you probably owe him a couple bucks an hour.

What if a guy is making $7 an hour to sling burgers? Dealers don't make $4 per hour, they make about $15. Your actions don't meaningfully change that.

There are many professions that should earn more that they do. Dealers were dealt a good hand and now earn more than they should because of our tipping system. Fast food workers also provide a service and have a crappy job with crappy pay, but we don't tip them and they aren't paid well. Why should we tip dealers but not fast food workers even though they make twice as much for similar work? Because it is customary?

[KJ]

And what of the tip in the hope of inducing a deeper cut.
My experience is it can work, just not often enough... oh well

I am walking out the door for a couple weeks vacation of surfing (waves not the internet) in SoCal, so I won't continue to engage in what is likely to be another long tipping thread, but I do want to comment on this comment by Metronome (not meaning to pick on metro).

In my view, which is usually not shared by many in the community, tipping for the purpose or hope of inducing a deeper cut, or any other advantage that is not part of the normal routine, technically amounts to bribery and collusion.

In exchange for money, you are asking (even if unspoken) the dealer to do something he/she otherwise wouldn't. The action you are asking for, while probably not illegal, could possibly be, if there is some sort of state regulation about cuts, but that is unlikely. But what is more likely is that it IS against house procedure, so you are trying to bribe the dealer to do something that could cost them their job.

Card counters have been crying for years, when the casino industry lumps us in with cheats and criminals. I don't want to engage in activity that at very minimum borders on cheating and/or criminality. That's just me. I take pride in winning fair and square by the rules of the game.

If the rules call for 12.5 pounds of air in a football, I am not going to ask someone to deflate the ball.
If the rules or house procedures call for a certain cut, I am not going to ask for a deeper cut.

To use another sports analogy, what is the difference between a blackjack player tipping the dealer in exchange for a deeper cut and a pitcher in baseball giving the umpire $100 for a bigger strike zone?

[Dieter]

I doubt that we would see major changes to rules in particular if the casinos labor costs were to increase.

What I see out here in the sticks is that the casino doesn't keep dealers standing around at empty tables.

They schedule dealers and tables to be open according to demand.

There is no magic time at 5am where you can go and play solo, because the tables are all closed. You want to play, you play at a crowded table, slowed down with everybody's 21+3 bets.

The only respite is the more expensive tables, where you might only have 2 or 3 other people playing with you.

So no, you won't see changes to the rules, but the tables may get more crowded if the house has to pay dealers more.

[Three]

As an aside, if tipping was to be completely abolished, why do you think that casino's would need to make up the full difference in their dealers wages? Currently, there is an excess supply of dealer labor, in general. That means the amount dealers make is greater than the equilibrium price. I highly doubt that we would see a shortage of semi-competent dealers if the wage at most places was more like $10 - $15 an hour.

The trouble with low wages is you tend to get the kinds of employees that would steal from you more than in a better paying job. If you were a casino would you want to make employee theft or collusion more likely or make sure your employees are paid well enough to attract the right kind of employees in sufficient numbers and squelch the temptation for those that are tempted. The Tran team hits casinos for outrageous sums because they have turned employees.

[Three]

If the rules or house procedures call for a certain cut, I am not going to ask for a deeper cut.

I am sure you don't play at the dealers table that cuts less either because someone probably tipped him to get him to do so. Or is your objection only when you have to pony up the tip. Don't worry it is a rhetorical question. We all know you would play at the table but just wouldn't tip. That is fine but get off your high horse when you regularly take advantage of this situation that others have payed for.

[CallSaul]

LVBear, respectfully, I think your post is good, and I respect your opinion, but I think your estimate of dealer's earnings is a bit high for a lot of areas. It's probably close for the middle and top of the Las Vegas casinos, but I think your estimate of the low end is too high, and outside of Vegas (where dealers are getting less than $8 an hour base) I think it's way too high.

This is some info from the authoritative publication on dealer tokes. These numbers are for an 8 hour shift:

http://www.vegas-aces.com/Root/tips/tips.html

For example, the El Cortez averaged $20-30 per shift in tips. With an $8 base, we're talking about 10-11 an hour, or $20-22,000 per year.

Here's another data point on dealer wages outside of Las Vegas: http://imgur.com/6qAlBvj

This large tribal casino in North Carolina is paying experienced table games dealers $5.25 to $7.00 per hour. Notice that there's no mention of tips for dealers (but the cocktail server wage is advertised as "$5.95 + tips").

[zergy]

I am sure you don't play at the dealers table that cuts less either because someone probably tipped him to get him to do so. Or is your objection only when you have to pony up the tip. Don't worry it is a rhetorical question. We all know you would play at the table but just wouldn't tip. That is fine but get off your high horse when you regularly take advantage of this situation that others have payed for.

Lol, amazing! I am going to have to start following around big tippers to get that better pen they paid for. Here is a real question for you: Do you really think dealers deal deeper to KJ because someone else tipped them?

[LVBear584]

I am sure you don't play at the dealers table that cuts less either because someone probably tipped him to get him to do so. Or is your objection only when you have to pony up the tip. Don't worry it is a rhetorical question. We all know you would play at the table but just wouldn't tip. That is fine but get off your high horse when you regularly take advantage of this situation that others have payed for.

The situation of a dealer even understanding that a patron desires better penetration, then providing it in exchange for tips, is so rare as to be able to be disregarded completely. I agree with KJ's collusion argument as another reason not to tip.

I once had a dealer tell me whether or not I should make an insurance bet after she checked the hole card. I left the table immediately. A few months later, she, another dealer and a couple of patrons were arrested for collusion.

[Three]

The situation of a dealer even understanding that a patron desires better penetration, then providing it in exchange for tips, is so rare as to be able to be disregarded completely.

I tip a lot of dealers that do just that. They tried to get me to tip and found better pen is what got the tips. Now tips get the better pen. I even had one apologize for cutting 1.5 decks off because the big brass was in the casino. The dealer even pointed at them as he said the was the best he could do for me today. The funny part was all the other dealers were still cutting thicker like 1.8 to 2.0 cut off. I tipped him and thanked him and won some. I didn't bother with the other 2 dealers that likes me to tip them. The dealers know what they can get away with.

I have had many helpful dealers that would unintentionally give away information or in some cases intentionally give it away. I had a woman that didn't deal BJ much and often checked for BJ before asking for insurance. You could tell by the way she asked and the frequency she asked whether she had it or not. Others helped when dealer error exposed a card that I didn't see. They would either directly or indirectly tell me what the card was. I hear all these AP's talking about the dealers being against them. They tend to be the non tippers among the AP's. My experience is that most dealers are helpful in any way they feel comfortable with. There are a few that are real jerks and really want you to lose but most know the tips are better if you win and they really want you to win because it is in their own best interest. Now don't you think some are smart enough to know how to help you win and do what they are comfortable with toward that end.

[Dieter]

The dealers know what they can get away with.

Exactly.

Some players want dealers to ask where they're from, and make sympathetic cooing noises when they lose, and they tip for that.

Some players want dealers to deal fast and cut as deeply as the house lets them. No harm in tipping for that.

If there's serious collusion, it's going to be paid some other way - not through the toke committee.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

I was playing in a casino in Mississippi where the dealers "went for their own",
and a dealer indicated that he would count for me and play my hands if I'd
"share the wealth" I got up and walked away.
I never saw him again and I later heard that "one of the dealers got arrested."

[BJGenius007]

I was playing in a casino in Mississippi where the dealers "went for their own",
and a dealer indicated that he would count for me and play my hands if I'd
"share the wealth" I got up and walked away.
I never saw him again and I later heard that "one of the dealers got arrested."

Your criminal vibe is radiating? Actually that is what I pictured you even just from your words over the years. Sorry if I am wrong.