How NOT to act when 86'd

[WABJ11]

Nonetheless, there do exists tribes that have waived immunity from personal injury torts, like the Navajo Nation, which operates casinos and is planning more.

Foxwoods requires torts to be filed with the Mashantucket Pequot Tribal Court. But, they have general liability insurance.

Mohegan Sun paid $775,000 after a casino limo crashed and hurt a patron.

In most cases, you're screwed. But, there's no harm in asking a lawyer about the particular tribe.

Yes, Tribals will sometimes be the good guy, though people need to know going in, they don't have to be. A friend of mine had his car totaled by tribal valet, and they had an insurance liability department. They ended up paying for all the damages.

It's funny, if you walk into one of the HardRock Seminole properties in FL they have huge signs talking about tort claims, and how the tribe has waived it's right to sovereign immunity in the state compact. The giant sign (I will take a picture next time) actually goes over step-by-step, if you have a tort claim, how to file such claim.

[WABJ11]

In my early early stage of my AP career I was intimidated, and coerced into signing a trespassing writ by the casino. I'm actually fairly certain the security guard would have assaulted me too if I hadn't complied with them which really would have been +EV, so if you're going to do this (count cards) it's imperative to know your rights, and how to handle yourself. Be in control of your movements, for example, do not valet so you can quickly get to your car if needed. I like to wear jackets/fleeces with zip-up pockets so I can grab chips and shove them in. This happens to also be good for large sums of cash too. KNOW YOUR RIGHTS! Nobody is gonna stand up for you except you! If you do happen to find yourself so lucky enough to get the tap:
1. Do not speak
2. Try to grab your chips and leave the premises as quickly, and calmly as possible without looking like you are "being aggressive."
3. Do not cash out unless you must (casino far away) since they have the best cameras at the cage
4. Do not answer any questions
5. Do not give ID, or adhere to any requests the casino makes. Pretend they are not there.
6. If someone tries to stop you from leaving, say 'I am trying to leave the premises and you are preventing me. Am I being detained?' If they say yes, ask what crime you've committed, and say that this is unlawful imprisonment as you are being held against your will. If this happens, insist the state police are summoned.
7. If anyone puts their hands on you, and forces you to go with them (as happened to Justin Mills at Maryland Live!) do not resist. This is what lawyers are for, and this is how you get millions of dollars. If you are so unlucky, or lucky depending on how you look at it, for this to happen summon the State Police.

This is important to know, and note, because had I known this, I think the casino would have assaulted me which would have been +EV.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

drunk,

I fully agree with the thrust of your post.

It is not inconceivable that a card counter with (very poor judgement)

could actually attempt to foment an ugly incident with casino security,

for the sole purpose of stage-managing a latent legal action with possibly

substantial awards for damages, largely punitive in nature, as well as recovery

of legal fees that can easily reach six figures for protracted cases, with appeals.

Note that attorneys do NOT accept fees contingent upon successful outcomes in

these cases. Hourly billing will be, at minimum. $400 per hour, and that includes

the time spent researching the case, telephone consultations, etc. ad infinitum.

Retainers, due "up front" will generally be $5,000, but it could be more

[LVBear584]

Consider a confrontation with a casino employee, particularly a security guard, to be the same as a confrontation with an unpredictable wild animal. Do not expect that they will obey laws or act reasonably or rationally.

LV Bear’s Guide to Minimizing Risk of Personal Injury During Casino Backoffs and Barrings

[WABJ11]

You say plus EV. I doubt it. Not when you consider sticker shock legal fees, additional travel expenses, the amount of time used up and the fact that you very well may not win. The case will become public record so casinos will now have an easier time identifying you as an AP. Without video it's just going to be a he said, she said kind of thing. Your righteous, deserving view of yourself may not be shared by a Judge who has ties to casino interests. In saying plus EV maybe you were trying to be humorous but if not or if the joke is not understood you have sent a very wrong message to new players.

My +EV analogies were in slight jest. But for $1.5 million dollars, I will happily allow the casinos to know who I am, and pay travel expenses.

In the Maryland Live! Justin Mills case, He was able to obtain the video WITH audio, and now he is well on his way to a $1.5 million judgement. He followed all of the advice I suggested above, and could not have handled himself better imho. I suggest all card counters know how to act during a back off.

Also, Justin's attorney, Abraham Carpio, is not charging him by the hour, but is on a contingency. My assumption is that he has such a strong case, with slam dunk evidence, that I suppose Carpio agreed to this arrangement. Obviously it's a case by case basis, and in general you will have to put up some money if you think your rights were violated, and you want to pursue legal action. Here are the videos if someone is unfamiliar with the Justin Mills case:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlMexfd2e8s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBdk1yG2pmU

[WABJ11]

Pointing out Justin Mills and his potentially million dollar settlement (that has not yet been realized) is like the Maryland Lottery pointing to a million dollar winner to show that the Lottery is really a great deal.

Are you kidding? Did you watch the videos? I'm not sure how you defend violating someone's civil rights on video in court, but maybe you have a secret defense I'm unaware of.

[LVBear584]

You are suggesting that getting into a confrontation may be a good way to make money and you are way wrong. It's obvious I'm not talking about Mills's case. You are justifying your idea with an anecdote from only one incident. The sad thing is that a new player might read this and fall for it. As experienced players we have an obligation to help new players not to mislead them as you are doing.

drunk is correct. I have several friends and acquaintances who have successfully sued casinos. All are happy with the money they received, but most are not happy at the amount of time and effort it took, and the loss of anonymity the lawsuits brought. Most would prefer that the incidents would not have occurred.

Trying to induce improper/violent casino employee behavior is ridiculous. There is a non-trivial risk of serious injury or even death -- the Eldorado Reno guard's killing of a patron on the casino floor, and the Las Vegas South Point guard wildly shooting at patrons in the parking garage are recent examples. Dealing with casino employees, especially guards, often means dealing with stupid, angry, violent people. Picking a fight with these thugs is not a reasonable way to try to make money. I urge anyone thinking of it to not take such a course of action. Again, I post a link to my guide below:

Link to:

LV Bear’s Guide to Minimizing Risk of Personal Injury During Casino Backoffs and Barrings

[WABJ11]

No, you guys are missing my point. I am not advocating for anyone to do something to antagonize a lawsuit. I am simply trying to advocate people know what to do, and how to respond, if they find themselves in that situation. Read my bullet points above. Do not misinterpret what I am saying.

Justin Mills did not have an option when he tried to leave, and he acted exactly the way he should have. This is what I'm trying to get across to people. As I said, in my early early stages I was intimidated and I didn't know what to do when caught up with a trespassing writ presented to me by the casino.