Although I don't mind a short string of off topic posts I do believe that it is for the good of the community to make an effort to gather our posts in easily readable and searchable units (threads/forums). So I hope that if any would like to continue talking about the issue or branch out to other ethics related discussion they do so here and not in a thread to do with edge sorting.
That isn't not what he was saying and you should know it. The content of the analogy is irrelevant, the point I believe ZenMaster_Flash was making is that you can't justify an AP play by saying if the casino can't defend from it they deserve to have it happen to them. He is just trying to apply the reason to another situation to prove a point.Originally Posted by Dieter
If you disagree with him, then state what the relevant difference is between your justification and the auto theft example.
Whether it is cheating or not depends on who's definition you use. However, I do think that it is telling that, as far as I know, no jurisdiction says its cheating. The majority of APs, I would imagine, disagree with ZenMaster_Flash as well.
As to my post earlier. I don't think it really matters whether the BP is there to gather the information he acts on. It's the same as a ploppy using his phone to call his friend over to play the roulette table that just had 8 reds in a row. Sure, in the former case the players have an advantage and in the latter they don't but I don't see how that is important unless you believe that casinos are morally entitled to have their edge. What matters is that the information is easily attainable by anybody.
In general I think the AP vs casino dynamic should be treated with the same moral standard as poker. As long as both are playing the game fairly, they're entitled to their winnings. That is not to say that the rules that the casino's set are the rule as to what the game really entails (by game I mean something beyond just the game itself, but how players may make decisions), but there needs to be a line drawn somewhere.
Personally, I think BP approach is fine but edge sorting I'm not as sure about. I think I'm fine with hole-carding but I haven't put too much thought into it.
What, specifically, do you disagree about when it comes to edge sorting? Do you think it's wrong or okay [moral/ethically]? Do you think it's cheating or legitimate? Should it be legal or illegal?
I think it's okay to do, is (and should be) legal, and isn't cheating. I'd have no problem from a moral/ethical standpoint on edge-sorting, whereas I might have an issue with playing against a weak dealer and tricking her into making mistakes. But chances are, I'd still play the weak dealer and try to force dealer errors.
"Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]
On edge sorting, I'm split. If it involves the casino violating its own procedures, like the player telling the dealer to rotate specific cards, or speaking to the dealer in Mandarin, I have a problem. If you are not violating any rule or procedure, what's the problem?
I have some thoughts on AP ethics in general at https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/en...Advantage-Play. But, my thoughts on AP ethics continue to evolve.
"I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse
Depending on what exactly you mean by "force dealer errors" you could very well be charged with theft by deception. Not a line I would recommend walking.
Theft by deception generally means the use of deception to obtain control over the property or services of another. The following is an example of a state statute governing theft by deception:
Theft by deception.
A person commits theft if he obtains property of another by deception. A person deceives if he intentionally:
(1) Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention, or other state of mind; but deception as to a person's intention to perform a promise shall not be inferred from the fact alone that he did not subsequently perform the promise; or
(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or
(3) Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another to whom he stands in a fiduciary or confidential relationship; or
(4) Uses a credit card, charge plate, or any other instrument which purports to evidence an undertaking to pay for property or services delivered or rendered to or upon the order of a designated person or bearer (a) where such instrument has been stolen, forged, revoked, or canceled, or where for any other reason its use by the actor is unauthorized, or (b) where the actor does not have the intention and ability to meet all obligations to the issuer arising out of his use of the instrument.
The word deceive does not include falsity as to matters having no pecuniary significance, or statements unlikely to deceive ordinary persons in the group addressed.
http://definitions.uslegal.com/t/theft-by-deception/
The ol' 6 card dealer 21 and exclaiming "Nice bust!", or having a 4 or 5 card (player) 22 and tucking the cards or exclaiming "21, perfect!.....as easy and simple examples. I'm sure you could get a weak dealer to pay out $62.50 instead of $52.50 on a $35 hand getting a BJ.
"Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]
There's a difference between advantage play, and just flat out taking advantage of someone. Whether or not what you're describing fits the precise legal definition of theft, fraud, con artistry, etc, I think in your heart you know it is just that.
Apples to oranges. "Deception" in poker is a fundamental aspect of the game which all players agree to and have an equal opportunity to participate in. Tricking an inexperienced or unwitting dealer into paying a hand that is supposed to lose is not a fundamental aspect of the game of blackjack. When a dealer accidentally takes a players money, it is demanded that mistake be rectified. When a dealer intentionally cheats a player it is demanded that the dealer be fired or arrested. Why should a player not be held to an equal standard?
I don't necessarily think it is cheating but casinos have refused to pay and their refusal has been held up in court. The ruling I believe was it changed the odds of the game by using a device (the cards) to gain an advantage that is not part of the natural game. If that logic is upheld then it is cheating in almost every jurisdiction.
Only when the error is caught.
The player is held to the same standard when found to be "cheating". Cheating being the operative word. Under NRS 465.015:
I don't think the definition clearly fits this situation. OTOH, the fraudulent acts section may be a problem. NRS 465.070 section 3 states:1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;
(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;
(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or
(d) The value of a wagering credit.
The last part would seem to suggest it is illegal to collect more than won. But, it's worded too broadly. It sounds like it would be a felony to collect without any knowledge that there was an error.NRS 465.070 Fraudulent acts. It is unlawful for any person: 3. To claim, collect or take, or attempt to claim, collect or take, money or anything of value in or from a gambling game, with intent to defraud, without having made a wager contingent thereon, or to claim, collect or take an amount greater than the amount won.
"I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse
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