Getting started w/counting. Like some feedback

[PokerProf]

I recently bought BJ Verite software and typically spend some part of each day doing the drills and playing the game. I have counted down a deck of cards in about 35 seconds (two cards at a time) and do a 6 deck table drill with 2 mistkes or less (usually off by one). I keep working at it and I keep improving. For me, so far, the toughest thing is actually counting in the BJ game section. I would think this would be easier since you have some control over the speed of the game; you take some time to ponder the move. The KO book said if you can learn to count by two's it's a little easier, and I think it is.

Anyone who has counted cards has a method; I try to count each hand as it is resolved. It seems easier than counting each card one by one but I am still struggling. Do most card counters resolve each hand or do they count cards one by one. Just like some opinions.

Thanks guys

[Three]

You need to be able to do both. The way to speed things up at the table is to use cancellations. Recognize card groups that add to 0 and just ignore the group. You can also do cancellations that don't add to 0 but that takes a split second more to do since you have to adjust the count. You really want to get to 30 seconds on counting down a deck. At that speed you can keep up with most dealers. Of course faster is better. When the forum members get into speed pissing contests 20 seconds is a good speed with a few getting quicker than that. If you can get to 25 seconds you will keep up with even the faster dealers. Now your head has to be fast for playing too. Being able to stall without looking like you are thinking to hard is a skill new players need. You are expected to give a hand signal. Keeping your signal hand busy will buy time. An itch, counting/stacking chips, taking a drink anything like that looks natural. If it is a double or insurance decision you can ask the dealer how much your bet is if it is a stack of chips or a mix of chips (it is usually best to bet one color chip to speed up the game and make the dealers life easier. You don't want the dealers to be aggravated by you). You can't touch your bet to count the stack so this looks natural.

[Aslan]

You need to be able to do both. The way to speed things up at the table is to use cancellations. Recognize card groups that add to 0 and just ignore the group. You can also do cancellations that don't add to 0 but that takes a split second more to do since you have to adjust the count. You really want to get to 30 seconds on counting down a deck. At that speed you can keep up with most dealers. Of course faster is better. When the forum members get into speed pissing contests 20 seconds is a good speed with a few getting quicker than that. If you can get to 25 seconds you will keep up with even the faster dealers. Now your head has to be fast for playing too. Being able to stall without looking like you are thinking to hard is a skill new players need. You are expected to give a hand signal. Keeping your signal hand busy will buy time. An itch, counting/stacking chips, taking a drink anything like that looks natural. If it is a double or insurance decision you can ask the dealer how much your bet is if it is a stack of chips or a mix of chips (it is usually best to bet one color chip to speed up the game and make the dealers life easier. You don't want the dealers to be aggravated by you). You can't touch your bet to count the stack so this looks natural.

Good advice. In finding cancellations, of course the ones that are in one hand are the easiest to spot (e.g., Ace/5, King/3, 8/9), but there are also cancellations that cross over hands, e.g., 8/Queen in one hand and 5/9 in another hand, the four of which add up to zero. If I see a Ten/Ten, I glance around for a hand with two small cards. I'm talking about level 1 counts, of course, and only where 8 and 9 are neutral cards. Many rounds require either no change or a change of 1 in the running count.

I like your idea about keeping your signal hand busy to buy more time. Acting ability is a great asset in counting cards. It also includes appearing to be not paying attention when in fact you are paying careful attention. Pretending boredom, impatience, distraction, inebriation, sleepiness, interest in table conversation, etc. are all good ploys to set pit and eye at ease.

[Bigdaddy]

I wouldn't worry so much about how fast you can count down a deck. I think this mantra got started before we had more effective practice tools such as the CV software. Practice with the CV software in real game action with 4 or 5 at the table. After you've mastered it at one speed, then notch it up and tackle the next speed. You'll be forced to count cards in groups and various formations just to keep up at the higher speeds. If you can keep up at 3/4 of the CV max speed, you're good to go - no real life action happens that fast.

One other very helpful tip (from Arnold Snyder) to both increase your counting speed and retain the count while holding conversations, etc. is to learn to visualize the count - see the count as number in you mind's eye. As cards are flipped, that number just keeps flipping. If you're a drinking man, you should be able to keep the count with a few in you (moderation here - no more than 2 or 3 drinks). Then you'll really know you're ready.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

If you are having trouble keeping the count …

Practice counting down a deck of cards (face up) 2 at a time,

After counting down to ZERO with 99% accuracy move to 3 cards at a time.

Finally, move to 4 cards at a time.

Work for accuracy. Speed will come.

Find BJ tables with no more than 2 other players and dealers who are not speedy.

[SiMi]

Hey, PP

This is ALL great advice! I suspect you'll develop your own, unique method once you've practiced enough. I spent a lot of time on the 'kitchen table' dealing as slowly as necessary to myself to get good at this.

These ideas of 'canceling' and visualizing the count ("Moonwalking with Einstein" style) and buying yourself some time with an Act are all great ways to get the job done. And, I agree with the comment that speed is somewhat over-rated and don't worry about speed much.

FWIW, I play shoe games and update the RC as each player gets her 2nd card (count by 2 cards at a time) and I combine the last player's 2 cards with the Dealer's 1 up card, if someone is sitting to my left. This means I need to be able to resolve 3 card combinations. After that, it's 1 card at a time. So, I need to be very good at 1, 2 and 3 card combo's. I wrote computer drills for myself for 1, 2 and 3 card combinations to that end.

Best of luck to you!
SiMi

[PokerProf]

Thank you all for your advice, this great! I did go to the casino last weekend (local means 4 hr. drive) and found out a few things about the games played:
Almost all BJ tables hit soft 17. I guess this is now the norm?
There are six casinos in this area; any Multi-deck game that has a minimum $5 bet is an 8 deck shoe, $10.00 and up are 6 decks.
Most casinos will deal a single deck game with S17, but BJ only pays 6:5
I watched a DD game in one casino and was surprised how well I could keep the count; I only saw one casino that offered DD and the minimum was $25.

Next time I go I'll bring more money and play a 6 deck game.

Thanks again guys

[Fireman]

My input would be to take it slow. Think of your early time in the casino as an extended training period.
Also, stay away from the 6 to 5 games.

[luckyned]

Backcounting is a great no consequences way to get ready for the pace, environment, and decision-making at a casino. Put yourself in the place of one of the players, count and decide as though you were them, and get your practice in all the conditions up to sitting down and putting your money out there.

[Nikky_Flash]

hi prof , please keep in mind that "the ko books" for a begginner ,don't give you an accurate way to judge for each games rules and conditions , when you exactly have an advantage ... even c.o.b. gives the advantage point for the great games he plays- a running count of 9 might work for his games , but no-reslipt aces and no surrender , h17 , you don't have any advantage at that count ... unfortunately there is no book or web searching that will do this for you (books and norms calc. will give house edge , but there's no way to know what count you use , what Tc you want to estimate , etc...) / you need to estimate house edge for every rule set and estimate what your TC gives you for percent advantage for every situation. I'll find the post where I explain this in detail and link it later sometime ... best of cards for u

[Fireman]

I would also add the following:
1. find better games (ex. S17, DAS, LS)
2. try to get a feel for casino conditions: heat, table crowds, etc.
3. practice, practice, practice