Narrowing the "Which Count?" Debate

[alexost]

On the subject of RPC. It's what I started with before I switched to Hi-Lo, then Hi-Lo Lite, and now Red Seven, over the years. One thing I liked and like about RPC, (or any true counted that uses half deck derived indices) is dividing by half decks and estimating to the nearest half deck.

Because for me it's easier to always divide by a whole number. That's one reason I would be inclined to add Hi-Lo Lite into the best count debate. Especially because it is tailor made to continue on to shuffle tracking.

I tried to start a thread before on advanced techniques but it didn't get any response which is understandable. From my years of dabbling in blackjack AP and trying to figure out what the best and smartest AP pros do, they wouldn't spend much time straight counting cards in today's games unless its bridging them to something else.

You really need to find something that gets you greater than the 1-2.5% edge if your livelihood depends on AP profit. I remember a post long ago from someone on BJ21 that goes by the screen name DD'. I believe he said it best. It went something like- "It takes a lot of money (relative to return) to make a little money counting cards."

In other words you can lose a ton of money before you might make a little money relative to the risked capital.

And Arnold Snyder points out that the flux is horrible for the return you get from a straight counting game.

So the best and brightest look for edges far higher than what straight counting gets you.

[Gramazeka]

RPC's complete, utter dominance is limited to shoe games.

You and Don wrong!

[DSchles]

What am I wrong about? I didn't make any claim! :-)

Don

[Gramazeka]

Don, next time i will call Hugo, for comparison of systems EBJ 2 vs RPC. ))

[DSchles]

Yes, fine. Give him my very best wishes.

Don

[moo321]

IF this thread is concerned with "pitch games"

then it ought to consider only Level 2 counts

and above, primarily Hi-Opt II, A.O. II, and ZEN.

The best choices !

I argued that HO2 is the best level 2 ace-side counted system. Obviously, this includes pitch, but also shoes if someone wants to do it there. Technically, HO2 is the best shoe count as well. But my focus was on "given X parameters, what are the best systems." And I don't think AO2 belongs in that discussion, because HO2 is just better.

My numbers are showing Zen/UBZ to be the best "hybrid" level 2 systems. That is, systems that perform better than level 1 in both pitch and shoe, and have good PE for pitch.

[moo321]

Alexost, well yeah, counting isn't the best thing out there . We'd all love to play $5 FPDW with 1% cashback on 10x points day, or $5-10 NL with a table full of call-station donkeys, or play soft betting lines with a nickel of a juice.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

HO2 in single Deck? My understanding the 8 and 9 are totally disregarded. A PE of 670 is great if you can and are allowed to play all indices without sacrificing pen. An IC of 910 is great if you can always take insurance without consequences. So to get to the 980 BC what is required of the Aces? It seems to me a rule of thumb is to not bet more than 2 hands and don't bet more hands than Aces remain.

The Hi-Opt II P.E. is "only" 0.67 IF you do not side count Aces.

I know no A.P. who does that in a Pitch game.

I side count Aces and 7's in Double Deck games.

In a single deck game, side-counting 6,s, 7's, 8's, 9's and Aces …

is easier than you think.

This precise issue is well-covered in The Theory of Blackjack.

Dr. Griffin uses the simple "Einstein Count" (10's vs 3,4,5,6):

The Base P.E. Is given as .615

With S.C. Aces = .635

With Aces and Sevens = .736

Aces, 7's,8's = .811

Aces, 7's, 8's, 9's = .870

Aces, 7's, 8's, 9's, 2's = .891

The P.E. For Hi-Opt II with Side Counts MUST be
higher than those above as it is a Level Two Count.

Higher P.E.'s would be forthcoming if a count using 6's instead of deuces would be assessed.

[moo321]

I took another look at this, and I may have been too quick to dismiss AO2. I still think HO2 is stronger, but I may have made a mistake in how much it is better in pitch. I'll get back to you.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

AO II loses out a bit on Insurance, but gains a bit elsewhere.

There is no meaningful significant difference in performance.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

moses,

You are apparently "missing the point."

You cannot group 2's and 7's as there are no hand match-ups where deficits / surpluses of them

(grouped together) provides you with any valuable information re: the violation of Basic Strategy.

PLEASE read the section in the Theory of Blackjack wherein Dr. Griffin gives the amazingly high

P.E. (near .90) for the grouping of uncounted cards. You will be, I imagine, quite amazed !

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Moses, you said:

"… by the time you go to trouble of all these side counts you may as well count all columns."

Take my advice and read up on the grouping of uncounted cards for a huge boost to the P.E.

What you said above is silly. It is as if you have never tried to side count more than Aces.

Follow my advice re: reading Peter Griffin on the grouping of the uncounted cards.

I repeated myself because it will not harm you to learn more of what you are talking about.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Bodarc,

Thanx muchly.

On behalf of all of us,

we appreciate the link.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080118230019/http://www.bjmath.com/index.html


Oops, this post is misplaced.