red chiping/crowded-conditions question

[Nikky_Flash]

hi guys/gals ,
I'm on a phone so sorry for any typos ,
I red-chip on occasion , if i want to play at non-crowded places , i have to drive almost two hours - not worth it with a small spread - i have places to play that are close to work / but every time I sit down its crowded / I can only get one shoe or so before the table fills fast - Ive heard people doing really well red-chipping , and was wondering if I should play at full tables or walk away .... I've heard people say (rule of 11 means its not worth it ) , only play with one or two others at a table ... oh , i mostly play 6d shoe, level two count , mostly white rabbit , occasional Wong ins - thanks ,

[Reign Man]

It's no big deal to play at a full table, certainly not worth unnecessary driving. I've done well red chipping for 3 years at full tables.

[21forme]

Rule of 11 is for DD.
Full tables aren't ideal, but doable if the pen is decent. It also gives you a good opportunity to wong in and out as the number of cards per round is substantial, so you'll know quickly whether or not to jump in or out.

[Nikky_Flash]

thanks guys , I appreciate the response ... I'm sure I'll start doing better now ... I feel like this has slowed me down so, maybe things will start picking up ... I'll report back with progress later ... thanks again

[Freightman]

hi guys/gals ,
I'm on a phone so sorry for any typos ,
I red-chip on occasion , if i want to play at non-crowded places , i have to drive almost two hours - not worth it with a small spread - i have places to play that are close to work / but every time I sit down its crowded / I can only get one shoe or so before the table fills fast - Ive heard people doing really well red-chipping , and was wondering if I should play at full tables or walk away .... I've heard people say (rule of 11 means its not worth it ) , only play with one or two others at a table ... oh , i mostly play 6d shoe, level two count , mostly white rabbit , occasional Wong ins - thanks ,

Sometimes, you just have do what you gotta do. If you have to play a full or close to full table, there is no room for art or subtleties. In other words, regardless of prior bet, lose, win, or push, immediately adjust your bet as required. Good pen doesn't hurt either. If you get bounced, you haven't lost much anyways.

[Nikky_Flash]

Sometimes, you just have do what you gotta do. If you have to play a full or close to full table, there is no room for art or subtleties. In other words, regardless of prior bet, lose, win, or push, immediately adjust your bet as required. Good pen doesn't hurt either. If you get bounced, you haven't lost much anyways.

Thanks , I'll hang in there when it crowds on the shoe games from now on... thanks everyone, I'll let ya know how it goes ...

[Tarzan]

There is travel time and a fuel expense to the less crowded place but hands per hour goes right down the tubes if playing crowded tables. Theoretically if you can camp out and are playing long enough, the gain in hands per hour might make the trip worth it even if the rules between the two locations were identical. You can't wong into a packed table also! I live next to Atlantic City but often travel considerable distances over more favorable playing conditions. Punch the numbers around and make some determination on what is more cost effective. Travel expenses can really cut into your bottom line and I often find myself chuckling about how I have to bang out X amount before I see my first dollar of profit for a given road trip when I am calculating what the expenses work out to but it's worth it to me.

In this situation you describe, consider the difference between banging out 80-100 hands per hour compared to only 20% of that (hypothetical numbers and you would know more specifically what these values may be), being unable to wong in due to packed tables, the time and fuel required to go to the less packed location, any differences in rules and make an educated guess on it. Is there such a thing as hitting the closer location at an off peak time? Careful management as a red chipper means you will be a green chipper soon enough, I would imagine, so may the blackjack gods rain down upon you favorably Nikky!

[Masterhoudini]

For red chipping, factoring in the expenses and travel time it's prob not worth it unless you're getting significantly better rules and pen at another store.

There has to be a time when the table is less crowded- graveyard shift comes to mind when you can play more freely.

Me personally, I don't think I would travel much to play at a red chip level. Expenses add up quickly, reallllly quickly.

[Dieter]

if i want to play at non-crowded places , i have to drive almost two hours - not worth it with a small spread

Unless you have a way to make it worth it.

If counting is your only play, sure, it's not worth it.

There's a place about 4 hours from me that gives me a reasonable fuel discount for showing up* plus live chips for sitting down to play**. That's usually enough to cover my expenses. Once I add in the daily promos (there and the place down the road) and the weekly mailers from the place that's just down the road from them and the three places I pass on the way... it's worth a visit every so often.

Daily promos and other plays can be worth a lot to a red chipper.


*pull into our gas station on these days of the week, use this coupon and pay inside - usually works out to about 7% off fuel.
**present this coupon when buying in at a table for an extra pile of cashable chips.

[Three]

It's been a couple years since I have been red chipping. As I remember what I did to cope was based on the fact that there was no casinos in my state. I would only go to casinos on trips planned to do other things that took my by the casinos. Doctors visits, vacations, shopping visiting a friend. That meant the travel expenses were something I would pay for no matter what so they were no longer an expense. The only exception was a $5 game that is a rare find around here or promos that allowed me to green chip with the same RoR. As a red chipper every part of Don's book was helpful. I read the entire book and then I would slowly read and digest a chapter at a time. I would plan a trip to use that chapter in a casino. I think the white rabbit chapter had the quickest obvious return. I table hoped right into a dream shoe where I made almost $2K. That was my biggest win outside of hitting promos as a red chipper. Now that is the expected win with my current spread. I rarely get a true dream shoe like that one in which I got a BJ, doubled or split almost every hand and only lost 1 hand and surrender 1 hand after the count skyrocketed. I had a dream shoe not long ago that had a $6K positive swing within the shoe but I lost some before the swing so the shoe total was a lot less impressive, I am guessing around $4.5K. Most good shoes are not near that number.

[RS]

Considering risk, remember that you can't count your +EV to offset your expenses at the same rate. Say casino A with $0 expenses gives you $300 in EV, while casino B with $50 in expenses gives you $350 in EV (minus $50 expenses so $300 net)......casino A would be the better option, from a risk standpoint, even though both have the same net EV of $300 per session.

[Fireman]

I agree with most of the comments about store conditions and travel expenses for a red chipper. Like many (I would assume), I keep a separate log of all travel expenses. I do not apply these expenses directly to the individual trips to arrive at a net gain (loss) for the trip. I apply the travel expenses to the period (monthly, quarterly, annually) to determine my net gain (loss) for the period. The variance associated with an individual session or trip is the key factor and reduces the information usefulness that I may receive from per-trip expense data. The exception to this is when I am either flying or my travel expenses for a particular trip are significant; then I will apply the expenses to my individual trip results.

[LVBear584]

It's been a couple years since I have been red chipping. As I remember what I did to cope was based on the fact that there was no casinos in my state. I would only go to casinos on trips planned to do other things that took my by the casinos. Doctors visits, vacations, shopping visiting a friend. That meant the travel expenses were something I would pay for no matter what so they were no longer an expense.

How did you account for the travel expenses on your tax records? Surely at least part of the expense was legitimately deductible.