I don't understand his thinking

**BJGenius007** · 07-04-2015, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Sharky

i hear this 1.5 deck 'canned' response all over (the country)...btw, happy 4th to all...try READING the regulations that are posted on the gaming board websites of the states you play in

this is from one such site:

The player or dealer making the cut shall place the cover card in the stack at least ten cards from the top or bottom of the stack. Once the cover card has been inserted, the dealer shall take all cards on top of the cover card and place them on the bottom of the stack. The dealer shall then insert the cover card in the stack at a position at least 1/4 of the way in from the bottom of the stack. The stack of cards shall then be inserted into the dealing shoe for commencement of play.

of course, the problem is that i would never actually challenge this rule as if tell the pit you actually read the gaming regulations THEY ARE CERTAIN TO REMEMBER YOU....something i avoid at all cost

This is nothing new. It is like in 1960's and 70's when there was only single deck game. A "good" dealer could track the four aces in the disposed tray. Every house had one or two to take money from whales or counters. When these dealers shuffle, they could shuffle skillfully but subtly, and clump at least three aces if not all four aces with small cards in the bottom to prevent players from getting Blackjack no matter where they cut the deck. I am surprised that it takes 10 years or 15 for ASM to implement such an old algorithm. I remember up to five or six years ago, cards from ASM felt like from good hand shuffle. Now it feels like I am combating those skillful dealers from 70's every shoe.

**Frank Galvin** · 07-05-2015, 01:45 PM

BJGenius007, I am intrigued as to whether there is any actual scientific basis for your theory(ies) re: ASMs and card sequencing (whether Aces, Tens, 7s and 8s or 2s through 4s). As probably most players have wondered from time to time, I have thought about whether casinos can adjust their ASM shuffling algorithms (noting that I have read many posts that reference winnable games decreasing during holiday weekends and special events, such as Super Bowl weekend), whenever they want. But, I have chalked that up to simple paranoia based upon my experience with lousy, negative variance from time to time.

In the interest of not disclosing any actual facts you might have supporting your comments and theories, I had attempted to PM you. Unfortunately, you cannot be PM'd for information, and therefore, any further discussion of this will remain on the general, non-subscription threads. I suspect you have not paid the annual subscription fee. I would strongly suggest that you do so: (1) so that you can elaborate on the underlying bases for your ASM sequencing beliefs in a more protected forum; (2) you can exchange PMs with other members; and (3) contribute to the support and ongoing administration of this website.

I for one would welcome the opportunity to further a discussion on your statements in a more appropriate fashion.

RS · 07-05-2015, 03:03 PM

bodarc, chances are, the dealer didn't think you were counting, but was making a joke out of it. What was the dealer's attitude when he said that? I'm guessing the dealer said that in a joking/playful manner, and not in a serious or strict way.

**BJGenius007** · 07-05-2015, 03:14 PM

Sorry. I don't accept PM. Anonymity is my top priority on any BJ forum.

Regarding my theory, I can't prove one way or the other. But about 50% of the shoes I played, especially in one casino, have 8 aces or more stacked in the bottom. Also when it happened, 100% of the chance these shoes have one stream of small cards. Of the 20 card sequence, it has no more than 2 face cards, a lot of 3's and 4's, like 23434345T3444T233373.

I have two indicators to decide if a shoe is sequenced:

First, there are eight or more aces stacked in the bottom of the shoe. If you cut it deep, they will appear in the first two rounds. If someone cut it thin, eight aces will appear in the last hand of the shoe. I have made such bold prediction a few times. Ploppies got amazed and said, "Oh my god, how do you know that?" when seven or eight aces were on the table in the last round of the shoe. I replied, "That is because you cut 1.5 decks from the top. Those aces are in the bottom."

Second, at some point of each shoe, there would be a stream of small cards, most 3's and 4's, a lot of 2's, some 5's and 6's, and almost none of other cards.

I would add the third indicator. Sometimes I saw a well known AP already playing. I don't need to test water first. Because the sequencing is already in progress. Over 90% of the chance this is true, unless the pit boss is new and has no idea there is an AP at his/her table.

**BJGenius007** · 07-05-2015, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by DickFer

I kept thinking they were up to something when they changed the decks out but I couldn't figure out what it was.

The casino brought new decks because they want to be subtle when they changed ASM setting from "normal" to "clumping". My casino has never been subtle in changing the ASM setting. They just had someone come and key in something into machine. Once I saw a training session. A new personnel doesn't know how to do it and his boss had to talk him through it.

About the mechanism to do this. First, the dealer puts all the cards in the disposed tray to the left chamber. If ASM is in normal mode, the arm pushes a card from the left chamber to the right chamber one by one until left chamber is empty and right chamber is full. Every push is a "push-through".

However, if the ASM is in clumping mode, the arm just pushes a card a little bit in order to scan the rank of the card (if not using RFID, then image processing technology is used.). If the card has not the desired rank, (not an ace in my scenario), the arm pushes the card back and try again. A parameter is preset so after a few attempt, a card has to be pushed through. Otherwise, the machine will be shuffling forever. Casinos could choose different levels of clumping by controlling the number of pushbacks to increase their edge and make counting less effective.

**Orangechip2** · 07-05-2015, 03:56 PM

I know that these machines will not only inform the dealer/floor that there is a missing card, but technology has advanced so far that it will even tell you exactly what card is missing, many times when it gets a red light and the floor says ahh, jack of club missing – then they call the eye and inform them they are going to count the cards to make sure they are all there because the ASM said a jack of clubs was missing and there are only 103 cards in the ASM. I have seen this on 1,2,6 and 8 deck games.

I have heard from a dealer (not read) that there is also a function on the ASM that organizes the cards in order. IF this is true,wouldn’t the only reason behind this function be to help the dealer/floor sort the cards when it is time to change the cards/close a table? I’m thinking if this actually is a function the only reason this function would be added to the ASM is for convenience purposes considering casinos pay $500-$600 a month to rentthem and their main priority is speed.

Floor, your input on this topic would be greatly appreciated by many especially myself, considering I think this would be a conflict of interest when it comes to the integrity of ‘fair gaming’. How is it fair if a casino has the capabilities of putting aces in a certain part of a shoe, which as BJG suggests would ultimately raise the HE tremendously.

I believe many here are now curious, well at least the ones who have many ASMs in their rotation.

**Bodarc** · 07-05-2015, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by RollingStoned

bodarc, chances are, the dealer didn't think you were counting, but was making a joke out of it.

Yes Rolling. He and the pit boss both were joking and laughing. That's why I was kidding with them about going out the back door as soon as they comped me a meal. But to play safely, I did leave after that shoe. His comment did make the pit boss take notice though which cut short the amount he could have made in tips if I had played longer.

**Floor** · 07-05-2015, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by Orangechip2

I know that these machines will not only inform thedealer/floor that there is a missing card, but technology has advanced so farthat it will even tell you exactly what card is missing, many times when itgets a red light and the floor says ahh, jack of club missing – then they call theeye and inform them they are going to count the cards to make sure they are allthere because the ASM said a jack of clubs was missing and there are only 103cards in the ASM. I have seen this on 1,2,6 and 8 deck games.
I have heard from a dealer (not read) that there is also afunction on the ASM that organizes the cards in order. IF this is true,wouldn’t the only reason behind this function be to help the dealer/floor sortthe cards when it is time to change the cards/close a table? I’m thinking if thisactually is a function the only reason this function would be added to the ASMis for convenience purposes considering casinos pay $500-$600 a month to rentthem and their main priority is speed.
Floor, your input on this topic would be greatly appreciatedby many especially myself, considering I think this would be a conflict ofinterest when it comes to the integrity of ‘fair gaming’. How is it fair if acasino has the capabilities of putting aces in a certain part of a shoe, whichas BJG suggests would ultimately raise the HE tremendously.
I believe many here are now curious, well at least the oneswho have many ASMs in their rotation.

Given that I've worked with many ASM variants over the years I can assure you (and everyone else) that this is yet another casino myth propagated by the same paranoid crowd that believes casinos "pump oxygen" into the pit to keep players awake and playing longer. Any sort of deceptive manipulation of a shuffle by the house would constitute a serious violation of state gaming regulations. For something this serious, license revocation would be guaranteed, as well shiny new metal bracelets for any casino management directly involved.

**Norm** · 07-05-2015, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Floor

casino myth propagated by the same paranoid crowd that believes casinos "pump oxygen" into the pit

Damn. That's the only reason I play blackjack.

**ZeeBabar** · 07-05-2015, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Floor

Given that I've worked with many ASM variants over the years I can assure you (and everyone else) that this is yet another casino myth propagated by the same paranoid crowd that believes casinos "pump oxygen" into the pit to keep players awake and playing longer. Any sort of deceptive manipulation of a shuffle by the house would constitute a serious violation of state gaming regulations. For something this serious, license revocation would be guaranteed, as well shiny new metal bracelets for any casino management directly involved.

i don't believe it's a myth because, one late night, I was playing a 6 deck game sitting on 1st. Base when a pit guy comes over, stops the machine, takes out three cards and inserts the rest. I ask him what he was doing and he stated he was performing a regular check. The machine comes to a halt with the red light. He peers into the window on top of the machine, reads out Jack of Clubs, 8 of clubs and another card, then flips over the three cards he had taken out, says the machine is working fine, opens the machine, places the three cards back in, the machine starts shuffling and he moves across the pit to do a check at another table.

**Norm** · 07-05-2015, 05:38 PM

What model? There are self-checking mechanisms in some shufflers. That does not mean they can manipulate.

**Floor** · 07-05-2015, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by ZeeBabar

i don't believe it's a myth because, one late night, I was playing a 6 deck game sitting on 1st. Base when a pit guy comes over, stops the machine, takes out three cards and inserts the rest. I ask him what he was doing and he stated he was performing a regular check. The machine comes to a halt with the red light. He peers into the window on top of the machine, reads out Jack of Clubs, 8 of clubs and another card, then flips over the three cards he had taken out, says the machine is working fine, opens the machine, places the three cards back in, the machine starts shuffling and he moves across the pit to do a check at another table.

Ah, the famous "card recognition" function that can optionally be enabled(thank god)... while theoretically useful, we've disabled it on most of our machines. The machines optics simply can't handle the onslaught of dust and dander, and it gets to a point where the thing can't tell the difference between an ace and a deuce(for example). It will -literally- give you an error message on every shuffle after a while.

**Freightman** · 07-05-2015, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by Floor

Ah, the famous "card recognition" function that can optionally be enabled(thank god)... while theoretically useful, we've disabled it on most of our machines. The machines optics simply can't handle the onslaught of dust and dander, and it gets to a point where the thing can't tell the difference between an ace and a deuce(for example). It will -literally- give you an error message on every shuffle after a while.

Floor, are you suggesting that the card recognition function, when on, would be the prime reason for the machine to jam, thus waiting for the machine to finish its shuffling cycle, if forcing a hand shuffle?