Good Story on Pathetic Camo

**Bigdaddy** · 06-20-2015, 06:29 PM

I finally get around to reading Ian Anderson's "Burning the Tables in Las Vegas". For those that haven't read it yet, this is a masterpiece on how the card counter can camouflage his playing and betting strategies and still maintain some decent EV. So I'm all fired up. I head to the $25 DD game at my local store tonight. The first time the count goes high, the guy next to me has big bet out. So my radar is up - maybe an AP sitting next to me. I watch for a few cycles and it's like clockwork - he's betting $25 min, $25 min....count goes high - he bets $250. Nothing in between. So now I'm thinking ...lighten up Ace, get an act. I came to play a little bit tonight and I don't want to get tossed with you.

So we go like the bobbsey twins for a couple of high counts (this is a very tolerant, player-friendly place, otherwise I would have left the table right away), and we and do very nicely. On one high count climax we all kill it with big bets, splits, doubles, etc. The whole table goes into high-five mode after the dealer busts.

Now the point of the story. This no-act AP sitting next to me decides it's time to make a camo play (better late than never - right?). So on the next hand (low count, min $25 bet) he is dealt a 13 against a dealer 4. He doubles for less ($10). He loses this idiotic bet and tries to make a big show out of it. The slightly overstuffed pit boss waddles over and says that he better be careful because that type of play is the sign of a card counter! The pit boss says that a card counter might take advantage of that double-down play if he knows that there are a lot of small cards left in the deck! Holy back-fire Batman! Of course the AP did his best to point out that a card counter would never do such a thing.

He was out of there after the next hand. Other than winning a few bucks, that's the only thing he did right....

**Lancehac** · 06-20-2015, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I finally get around to reading Ian Anderson's "Burning the Tables in Las Vegas". For those that haven't read it yet, this is a masterpiece on how the card counter can camouflage his playing and betting strategies and still maintain some decent EV. So I'm all fired up. I head to the $25 DD game at my local store tonight. The first time the count goes high, the guy next to me has big bet out. So my radar is up - maybe an AP sitting next to me. I watch for a few cycles and it's like clockwork - he's betting $25 min, $25 min....count goes high - he bets $250. Nothing in between. So now I'm thinking ...lighten up Ace, get an act. I came to play a little bit tonight and I don't want to get tossed with you.

So we go like the bobbsey twins for a couple of high counts (this is a very tolerant, player-friendly place, otherwise I would have left the table right away), and we and do very nicely. On one high count climax we all kill it with big bets, splits, doubles, etc. The whole table goes into high-five mode after the dealer busts.

Now the point of the story. This no-act AP sitting next to me decides it's time to make a camo play (better late than never - right?). So on the next hand (low count, min $25 bet) he is dealt a 13 against a dealer 4. He doubles for less ($10). He loses this idiotic bet and tries to make a big show out of it. The slightly overstuffed pit boss waddles over and says that he better be careful because that type of play is the sign of a card counter! The pit boss says that a card counter might take advantage of that double-down play if he knows that there are a lot of small cards left in the deck! Holy back-fire Batman! Of course the AP did his best to point out that a card counter would never do such a thing.

He was out of there after the next hand. Other than winning a few bucks, that's the only thing he did right....

Thanks for retelling your experience. I learned some things, esp. how some pit might think.

I agree, agree, and agree with you.

EXCEPT, sounds like he won more "than a FEW bucks."

KJ · 06-20-2015, 07:23 PM

Interesting story Bigdaddy. I have a just a couple thoughts.

The AP did the cover play right. It 'backfired' because he happened to catch an idiot of a floorperson. I don't think that is the AP's fault.

Now just a couple things about Anderson. His style of play was designed for very high limits. He played high limits with pit folks glued to his play, so he needed to come up with some plays that would allow him to play right under their noses while thy stared at him. It was pretty innovative at that time, but it did have a high cost. Playing his limits and the better games of yesterday he could afford that cover.

Players using this approach today should realize two important things. First, with worse game (higher house edges), there is a steep cost to this type of cover play. I wouldn't recommend this approach for anyone playing red or even green and spreading. It just eats too much of your profits. Spreading black and above is the minimum I would even consider this approach and personally, I still think you give up too much. There are better ways.

Second, this approach isn't new, obviously. That means it is somewhat known among pit and surveillance, especially the high end people that are protecting the high end games. So the high cost that you are paying, may not buy you any where near what you think in today's world.

Oh and one other piece of advice. That 'playing with another counter', spreading bets in unison, is one of the worse things you can do. Tolerant, friendly store or not, I'd be real careful with that. "Danger! Danger! Will Robinson!"

**21forme** · 06-20-2015, 07:36 PM

Bigdaddy - read KJ's post, then read it again. He speaks the gospel (except for the apostrophe in noses

)

**Bigdaddy** · 06-20-2015, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by KJ

Interesting story Bigdaddy. I have a just a couple thoughts.

The AP did the cover play right. It 'backfired' because he happened to catch an idiot of a floorperson. I don't think that is the AP's fault.

Now just a couple things about Anderson. His style of play was designed for very high limits. He played high limits with pit folks glued to his play, so he needed to come up with some plays that would allow him to play right under their nose's while thy stared at him. It was pretty innovative at that time, but it did have a high cost. Playing his limits and the better games of yesterday he could afford that cover.

Players using this approach today should realize two important things. First, with worse game (higher house edges), there is a steep cost to this type of cover play. I wouldn't recommend this approach for anyone playing red or even green and spreading. It just eats too much of your profits. Spreading black and above is the minimum I would even consider this approach and personally, I still think you give up too much. There are better ways.

Second, this approach isn't new, obviously. That means it is somewhat known among pit and surveillance, especially the high end people that are protecting the high end games. So the high cost that you are paying, may not buy you any where near what you think in today's world.

Oh and one other piece of advice. That 'playing with another counter', spreading bets in unison, is one of the worse things you can do. Tolerant, friendly store or not, I'd be real careful with that. "Danger! Danger! Will Robinson!"

Thanks KJ - you're right on about the stupid pit boss, about Anderson's methods and about why I should have left the table as soon as I detected another AP. I just couldn't resist...

KJ · 06-20-2015, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by 21forme

Bigdaddy - read KJ's post, then read it again. He speaks the gospel (except for the apostrophe in noses

)

No apostrophe there? Ok...fixed.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 06-21-2015, 07:30 AM

"Burning the Tables in Las Vegas"

It was reprinted in 2003; but was it really revised ?

Anybody have a copy ?

Any comments or replies ?

Anderson's FIRST book -- Not "Burning the Tables in Las Vegas" but "Turning the Tables in Las Vegas"

A book so dreadfully bad that you can hardly imagine it; but I.A. made amends so very well !!

A book so surreally bad that is fascinating how I.A., made amends so well with "Burning the Tables in Las Vegas"

**Jabberwocky** · 06-21-2015, 12:05 PM

I liked the parts the discussed the player who was playing to a 48% ror and riders on the storm.

**Shadowless** · 06-21-2015, 03:01 PM

(1) It's Ian Andersen, NOT Ian Anderson. I understand how it can be easy to get that name confused, though. We wouldn't confuse Stanford Wong with Stanford Wang would we?
(2) I think the difference between the 1st and 2nd edition of Burning the Tables is that the 2nd edition includes the section on green chip play. He basically went out on the field and played greens unrated without cover (1x25 to 2x400 if I recall correctly) and said he ran into no trouble, including properties he was previously backed off at and had facial recognition.

**Jabberwocky** · 06-21-2015, 03:50 PM

Much easier to get by the radar playing green and still have a decent rate of return.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 06-21-2015, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowless

He basically went out on the field and played greens unrated without cover (1x25 to 2x400 if I recall correctly) and said he ran into no trouble, including properties he was previously backed off at and had facial recognition.

Ludicrous. Go out tonight and spread like that
(including moving between 1 and 2 hands,
and see how long you last spreading 32-1.

I suspect that's a editor's lack of ethics
in order to sell more books, naturally !

It would take a great deal of naiveté
to be gullible enough to swallow that !

**Shadowless** · 06-21-2015, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

I suspect that's a editor's lack of ethics
in order to sell more books, naturally !

*an

I disagree with your statement regarding increasing book sales.

If Andersen had said something along the lines of, "I got away with spreading 1-xx, buy my book to find out how I got away with it," then I would agree.

How does Andersen writing about his experience with green chip play result in more book sales if readers aren't aware of his experience?

Moreover, his green chip experience was just one chapter of many, and was not the focal point of his book. There are a lot of other informative topics that may or may not be useful or applicable for everyone.

**stopgambling** · 06-21-2015, 10:49 PM

The world has changed ,spread 1-4 in green can get you back off! lol. I was told 1 st hand some plays similar to Ian Andersen 's and the guy was back off when he put down $2000 bets .I have experienced playing a max bet of only $150 on a $25 table 60% pen game and within 2 shoes the pen drop to 40%.