Question:
Is it worth going to a higher stakes table, because there are fewer people playing or is it better to just deal with 5 or 6 people at a table and have a lower min bet. I can definitely see the advantage of having fewer people at the table, but almost always that comes with the price of a higher min bet.
Making the jump about 8 years ago, from playing red chip level tables to $25 minimum tables was a huge step in my career. At the time I was playing $10 and $15 minimum tables spreading to $150. When I was able to play $25 tables, even with a smaller spread (25-200), my results improved dramatically, far more than just the proportional going up in stakes.
It opened up far more tables to me, meaning more games available. The tables were less crowded, meaning more rounds per hour and some wonging opportunities that were rarely available at the crowded lower limit tables. And, at that time, it wasn't unusual for $25 tables to have better rules, like s17 vs h17 at the lower tables. This one probably doesn't come into play now a days, as you need to jump to $100 tables to see that kind of change in rules. But overall, it just opens up more opportunities for you.
If you're playing shoe games and can wong out and back in, then more players are preferable since you'll get to plus counts quicker, or the shuffle quicker if you wong out.
If it's a DD game with 5+ players, not really worth playing since you'll only get 4-5 rounds at most places, maybe three depending on where cut card was placed and how many cards were drawn between rounds. You might get one or two max bet opportunities every few shuffles, and dropping back to minimum is obvious.
High limit tables usually give the player the benefit of the doubt for awhile, unless it's a sweat shop. Just don't split 10s or take insurance on stiffs. You'll be fine for awhile if your spread is moderate and your act is good. Difficult to play unrated in HL rooms and draws red flags. If you're a first timer at a casino, you can get away with it.
It all depends on your style of play. If you like to hit and run, just play where the stakes where you'll likely get the least attention and leave after the shoe you make your largest bets.
One thing I have noticed when a lot of people are at the table is that the count may have ended on a bet ramp-able (is that a word??) number on the previous hand and then in the next hand, because there are so many hands being dealt, the count can sometimes go horribly south while the cards are coming out; exhausting all the cards that were meant to be profited on and spreading them all over the table. So, now I have a big bet out there, with a less than optimal count.
Sorry I don't have a more mathematical description of this effect. Makes sense though. If the count gets good, the fewer people at the table, the more likely you will get the cards that you will profit on in the next hand. Right?
And sometimes the count can go wonderfully north. However, hands per hour will be reduced considerably as well as the number of hands you'll be able to play into when you do get a good count. Your cards will get eaten faster.Originally Posted by Cloudstreets7087
Last edited by Bodarc; 06-09-2015 at 01:56 AM.
Play within your bankroll, pick your games with care and learn everything you can about the game. The winning will come. It has to. It's in the cards. -- Bryce Carlson
When the count is climbing, you are typically losing, correct? I would think that is part of the reason for a bet ramp rather than a shove all in. When you are making money after an increased bet, typically the count is going down. With lots of people at the table and a high count, I've seen those nice high cards get spread out all over the table and no one (especially me) truly benefits.
I've decided to shoot for no more than three players at the table. I did that last night and things were much more even and predictable.
I think you were implying the players before you get all of the high cards at a full table which leaves you without a high count. I just said the players before you could get all low cards which would increase your advantage. Just because the count is high does not necessarily mean an excess of low cards are coming on the next round. But you are right to look for a less crowded table.
If you are a hands per hour guy then I say heads up at a higher limit table. If you play in a place that allows MSE in the lower minimum games, then wong in @ TC +1.5-2 & make 2 BR appropriate wagers (depending on how many ppl are sitting at the table for 1 or 2 spots) and back out when count tanks\cut card comes out.
I like this approach because again you spend no time with a 'waiting bet' being wagered. I'm not sure of the count system you are using but using hi/lo I can count two tables at once and I now spend hardly anytime idling in a casino.
I like this approach. I like it very much. The thing is though that at the casinos I go to, the low limit tables are packed with people so Wonging in is typically not easy or possible and for the reasons mentioned earlier, jumping in on a table with a lot of people at it sometimes doesn't give you the benefit you were hoping for with regard to the count.
I typically just sit down at tables with a new shoe and make the investment with min bets to see what the count is going to do. I don't love this approach, but it seems like that's just the way to do it with the casinos I go to. I did try to Wong in recently on a $50 table which is extremely rare. There were only two people playing and I was chatting them up the whole time getting all buddy-buddy. There was no sign for "No mid-shoe entry." And it was actually a mistake. Pit boss forgot to put the sign up. I hung out for two shoes fist bumping and making a lot of noise with the two guys playing. Reached TC +3 and I asked if I could join them. Unfortunately, they asked if I could wait a bit and I told them no problem. I felt like betting on their hands, but didn't have the balls. Count went back down and told them good luck and left. Both guys won 3 hands in a row and my bet ramp would have put me at $400 when jumping in. t'was a shame.
Wonging in, comes with it's own set of problems. Basically, if you do this multiple times in the same casino or worse yet, pit, it isn't very difficult to see what you are doing and they can and will employ countermeasures against you just the same. Crowded times, when pit and surveillance may be occupied with other things can provide a bit of cover, but of course, crowded conditions are not ideal for wonging in because there aren't always open seats.
For these reasons, many players adopt the compromise style of playing off the top of a fresh shuffle, but aggressively wonging out of negative counts. Not quite as beneficial as wonging in, but it does look a little more natural, as there are a variety of reasons that a player might choose to exit after only a short time. Out of money (or appearing to be out of money), dealer too hot, dealer too slow, dealer too fast are among many.
I agree and disagree. I mainly agree about wonging in having problems of its own. With that said, I believe many teams overlook conditions when wongig in, well at least mine did for the first few times playing together .
In certain parts of the county I have found that pit\surveillance is not as smart as the big gambling places (Reno, Vegas, AC, etc.), therefore, I have never encountered a problem when I was called into a game, or back counted my way into a game outside of these big places. I will never forget when I was skimming that I seen a guy post "I like my casinos dumb"; That statement really had me thinking, and then after going nearly invisible for 500+ hours I started traveling to these big places and seen exactly what the guy meant first hand- I'm talking several immediate BOs in big gambling cities very, very FAST, although hit and run was the plan.
BTW, who was it that originally posted (it could have been months ago or even years, I read it prior to making my first post on this site) It was something like "I don't like smart casino, I like my stores dumb." or something along those lines.. +1 to them !
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