For Any Pros/Semi-Pros Out There

[houyi]

What do you do with your time away from the tables? Everyone I've talked to on the subject says that it's very difficult to get more than, say, 20 hours in per week relatively safely from a heat perspective.

1) Do you find this to be accurate, or is this figure just assuming you stick to local casinos?

2) If it is a fairly accurate figure, what do you do with the rest of your time? Scout other opportunities? Take on a side-job (if so, what kind of job? Obviously flexibility is a must there)? Travel to new spots? Look for other investments? Life of leisure?

Thanks in advance.

[blackjackomaha]

I think your 20 hours/week figure is highly dependent on the number of casinos in your area. When I was primarily hitting up local casinos, I was averaging between 20-30 hours of play, with up to 10 additional hours scouting. This was in addition to my normal job, which offers limited flex-time options so I can adjust my schedule within reason (40-50 hours/week). This would not have been possible without my wife's support, and she joined me most of the time at the tables.

In the last few years, I've transitioned away from this type of play. My current position does not have the same level of flexibility, but on the flip side, it pays much better than my previous position. Due to past success at the tables and not being aware of my surroundings, I also have trouble playing in my local casinos, so I travel 4-6 days per month with a revamped game plan (mostly driving, occasional flying). I also play higher EV opportunities, so the lower number of hours haven't tremendously affected my total monthly EV. The 4-6 days per month are sometimes entirely spent scouting, but there are plenty of times I can get 50-60% of the time playing an opportunity. I've teamed up with 3 other players, so it provides more creativity when playing/scouting.

I spent the majority of my time focusing on my career, since I only intended to AP part-time. If you do not intend on being a full-time player, I highly suggest you make your career the primary focus. If you do that, I think 20 or so hours of play with the remainder of the time bettering yourself (continued education, learning, etc), hanging with friends, or taking on hobbies will keep you plenty busy. If you're intention is to AP full-time, some of the other forum members would be able to provide better advice.

Always continue improving your AP skills and never stop investing in yourself. Good luck!

[Jabberwocky]

I think your 20 hours/week figure is highly dependent on the number of casinos in your area. When I was primarily hitting up local casinos, I was averaging between 20-30 hours of play, with up to 10 additional hours scouting. This was in addition to my normal job, which offers limited flex-time options so I can adjust my schedule within reason (40-50 hours/week). This would not have been possible without my wife's support, and she joined me most of the time at the tables.

In the last few years, I've transitioned away from this type of play. My current position does not have the same level of flexibility, but on the flip side, it pays much better than my previous position. Due to past success at the tables and not being aware of my surroundings, I also have trouble playing in my local casinos, so I travel 4-6 days per month with a revamped game plan (mostly driving, occasional flying). I also play higher EV opportunities, so the lower number of hours haven't tremendously affected my total monthly EV. The 4-6 days per month are sometimes entirely spent scouting, but there are plenty of times I can get 50-60% of the time playing an opportunity. I've teamed up with 3 other players, so it provides more creativity when playing/scouting.

I spent the majority of my time focusing on my career, since I only intended to AP part-time. If you do not intend on being a full-time player, I highly suggest you make your career the primary focus. If you do that, I think 20 or so hours of play with the remainder of the time bettering yourself (continued education, learning, etc), hanging with friends, or taking on hobbies will keep you plenty busy. If you're intention is to AP full-time, some of the other forum members would be able to provide better advice.

Always continue improving your AP skills and never stop investing in yourself. Good luck!

If you are a full time player, you are following the course of Kevin Blackwood. That's what I do. Playing the best games with the best conditions while shunning the mediocrity. Sleep with the best-trash the rest.

[zergy]

1) Do you find this to be accurate, or is this figure just assuming you stick to local casinos?

Id say I qualify as "semi-pro." Agree with bjo, "It depends." I average WAY less than that. I didn't even get 200 hours in all year in the last year so I never really approach 20/week.

2) If it is a fairly accurate figure, what do you do with the rest of your time? Scout other opportunities? Take on a side-job (if so, what kind of job? Obviously flexibility is a must there)? Travel to new spots? Look for other investments? Life of leisure?

If I am waiting for the next shift, I'll see a movie or golf or try to nap or get some "side work" done. My "side job" is real estate now, which I think is a great fit. I sell houses to my friends/relatives which is easy, fun and good money. My broker is a friend and has nearly zero expectations or oversight - very flexible. I invest in/flip houses ( which also takes a lot of scounting) and do some land-lording. Real estate and AP fit together nicely imo.

[ZeeBabar]

There needs to be a better definition of semi-pro. A full pro needs the money he wins to meet his living expenses so my definition of a semi pro is someone who earns some living expenses from his AP pursuits.

There re are others, like me, who do play a lot but AP earnings are extra, that is, we do not play to earn money to meet our living expenses. I work 40 hours a week, play 1-2 hours daily and another 5 on the weekend. With driving time included, I spend 20 hours a week on BJ and then 2-3 trips of 2-5 days where I play 8 hours a day.

in local casinos I play rated and without heat (as they know of my full time employment) and I established a losing record ( rat holing, getting their attention when losing etc.).

[Exoter175]

What do you do with your time away from the tables? Everyone I've talked to on the subject says that it's very difficult to get more than, say, 20 hours in per week relatively safely from a heat perspective.

1) Do you find this to be accurate, or is this figure just assuming you stick to local casinos?

2) If it is a fairly accurate figure, what do you do with the rest of your time? Scout other opportunities? Take on a side-job (if so, what kind of job? Obviously flexibility is a must there)? Travel to new spots? Look for other investments? Life of leisure?

Thanks in advance.

I think I qualify as a full on professional for this one, so I"ll add in a few cents here and there.

1. No. Like others have said, it largely depends on a number of factors. How many local casinos do you have? Are you willing to put in time? Do you have beatable games at those casinos? Do you have "other" AP tools to work with than APBJ?

2 In the average week I'll "work" roughly 70 hours per week, split up between 7 casinos over 5 days. In the average "day" I'll spend about 6 hours playing at the table, 4 hours on "other" AP stuff, roughly 2 hours driving between locations, and another 2 hours scouting or "waiting".

The two days I'll take off per week to "relax" are largely spent grocery shopping, doing dishes, laundry, etc.

Once a month I make it a concerted effort to take a 3-4 day "trip" out of my local area and explore new places to play and scout out. In large part this is due to "other" AP plays, but the bulk of APBJ is served here scouting as well.

There needs to be a better definition of semi-pro. A full pro needs the money he wins to meet his living expenses so my definition of a semi pro is someone who earns some living expenses from his AP pursuits.

There re are others, like me, who do play a lot but AP earnings are extra, that is, we do not play to earn money to meet our living expenses. I work 40 hours a week, play 1-2 hours daily and another 5 on the weekend. With driving time included, I spend 20 hours a week on BJ and then 2-3 trips of 2-5 days where I play 8 hours a day.

in local casinos I play rated and without heat (as they know of my full time employment) and I established a losing record ( rat holing, getting their attention when losing etc.).

I tend to look at the definitions like this.

Pro: Someone who lives, eats, breathes AP and spends most of their waking hours involved in the AP business
Semi-Pro: Someone who can't commit to the hours of a Pro, but otherwise has the same skillset.

IMO, most people fall under the "Semi-Pro" label due to children, marriage, careers, etc.

[NotEnoughHeat]

Pro: Someone who lives, eats, breathes AP and spends most of their waking hours involved in the AP business
Semi-Pro: Someone who can't commit to the hours of a Pro, but otherwise has the same skillset.

IMO, most people fall under the "Semi-Pro" label due to children, marriage, careers, etc.

I'm not sure if someone else brings this up later in the thread (I'm currently on pg. 2). If that's the case, excuse me for being redundant.

Isn't the above distinction the reason one of the forum members (someone might have to remind me who) offered the term PTPP (part-time professional player). Semi-pro is another good way of putting it, but it feel like it might sound misleading because it gives the impression that the 'normal' full-time pros are playing at a higher level (whether it stakes or something else) than the 'semi-pro'. I think PTPP is a better way of naming the 'semi-pro' since it doesn't imply any difference in arena or skill level.

[KJ]

Isn't the above distinction the reason one of the forum members (someone might have to remind me who) offered the term PTPP (part-time professional player). Semi-pro is another good way of putting it, but it feel like it might sound misleading because it gives the impression that the 'normal' full-time pros are playing at a higher level (whether it stakes or something else) than the 'semi-pro'. I think PTPP is a better way of naming the 'semi-pro' since it doesn't imply any difference in arena or skill level.

Why is such a label important? Does labeling oneself or having others label you semi-pro, or part-time pro, or even a fulltime professional player, give one more credibility or something?

I've never been that big on labels in many aspects of life, but I can tell you as a "full-time, professional AP, blackjack player" (label), that I have learned far more from many part-time, recreational or hobbyist players than from 'professional players'. Some of the smartest player I know are part-time or recreational players supplementing their income. For starters, they are smart enough to know not to 'put all your eggs in one basket', as I have done.

Plus you get into the fact that many, even most, fulltime players are shall we say a little 'tight' on sharing anything.

[NotEnoughHeat]

Why is such a label important? Does labeling oneself or having others label you semi-pro, or part-time pro, or even a fulltime professional player, give one more credibility or something?

It's important for clarity, so people in the community, as well as new comers, have a clear idea what we are getting at. By no means did I mean to imply that it is important to make sure we each have fitting titles in our little group award giving ceremony or anything of the sort. When it comes to communication, words do matter. If some people put their ego and identity too much into whatever labels, let that be so, but I think it is still a relevant discussion point to talk about what we mean when we use a particular phrase in a certain context as well what the best way to convey a certain description is.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Ilghan,

Put down that crack pipe and get into rehab.

Personally, I hold that edge-sorting is cheating!

Opinions vary.

Meanwhile, having said that,

just one attempt at edge-sorting will answer your question.

It will be very obvious almost immediately.

This should be plainly obvious but I will ask just the same:

Is this game dealt face-up ? If so, no sorting is possible.

[biggg]

I bet sports in my time away from casinos. It took me a while to get to where I was winning but it's definitely worth it. Also, it can be done anywhere.

[Rob Rod]

[IMG]http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/03/375706c4d0e1624698cee0ac39adcb53.jpg[/IMG
I play at home with all the local players late at night!

[Tamn]

I don't think I've posted before, I usually lurk but I figured I'd chime in here.

I started playing full time late last year, since I have averaged 60 odd hours a week average table time. Not counting travel time at all in that figure. I rarely do anything but "work" at playing cards. It is extremely time consuming for me, especially the traveling. On a side note, I have only been backed off once since turning "pro"

Hope you find this interesting,
Cheers!