Rounds per hour

[KJ]

ZenKinG, at the risk of offending you, I can't help but notice that as you prepare for your blackjack career, which you have been doing for quite a while, you continually seem to have unrealistic expectations.

While you may think that T3 didn't answer your question, his first short post was a valuable response. The fact is that in today's world, those 200-300 rounds per hour opportunities are becoming rarer and rarer. You have to get a heads up game, which is becoming harder and harder to do as regular blackjack tables dwindle, being replaced by the so many other table games competing for the same floor space. Then if you do find a heads up game, you still need the dealer to work with you to achieve those kind of rounds per hour.

Without heads up opportunities, average rounds per hour drop dramatically. 100-120 rounds per hour with one other player, IF the other player isn't playing side bets and the dealer is reasonably fast. Each player you add, rounds per hour go downhill significantly. As T3 indicated crowded conditions and side bets are the big culprits.

I am a player that really tries to get into the quick moving games, for a secondary reason, I want to get in and out, exposing myself and spread as minimally as possible. Try as I might, I am sure my average rounds per hour is well below 100 (it's not a stat that I track), even with the occasional heads up play 'bumping up' those numbers. It's just another one of those things that are deteriorating about today's blackjack conditions.

[stopgambling]

I would say anything more than 200rounds / hr is really good condition. To play at 250-300 for hours is probably considered exceptional condition and is not easily kept up with harder count. I have not had the chance to play beyond 200rounds /hr for a long time now. All I see is crowded or tables with 3-4 players betting side bets and HITTING them nowadays .

[ZeeBabar]

I think going in to a casino with plans to play fast games (over games with better pen or better rules) is an exercise in futility. It leads to needless stress too. Other day I am playing with one other person and the rounds are going good. five minutes into the game another player sits, places 8 hundred dollars. The dealer gets 4 black chips and 4 Green ones. The player looks at them, says he wants 4 blacks, 3 in Greens, $75 in red chips and $25 in one dollar chips. This takes additional time.

He then places as his first bet, a green chip and a red chip ($30) and bets $1 for the dealer. First hand he gets a BJ. Now the dealer has to give him the money in green and red and white and the $.50 in pink. Pay off the dealer bet as well! It's obvious he is going to keep doing this.

You either walk away from a good game or you play while stressed out and irritable about how the game speed is cut in half or you relax and deal with it.

[KJ]

five minutes into the game another player sits, places 8 hundred dollars. The dealer gets 4 black chips and 4 Green ones. The player looks at them, says he wants 4 blacks, 3 in Greens, $75 in red chips and $25 in one dollar chips.

Four black and 4 green is $500....that's not a good return for $800 in cash. 4 black, 3 green, $75 in red and $25 in white is $575....that's better but still a lousy return for $800.

[ZenKinG]

ZenKinG, at the risk of offending you, I can't help but notice that as you prepare for your blackjack career, which you have been doing for quite a while, you continually seem to have unrealistic expectations.

While you may think that T3 didn't answer your question, his first short post was a valuable response. The fact is that in today's world, those 200-300 rounds per hour opportunities are becoming rarer and rarer. You have to get a heads up game, which is becoming harder and harder to do as regular blackjack tables dwindle, being replaced by the so many other table games competing for the same floor space. Then if you do find a heads up game, you still need the dealer to work with you to achieve those kind of rounds per hour.

Without heads up opportunities, average rounds per hour drop dramatically. 100-120 rounds per hour with one other player, IF the other player isn't playing side bets and the dealer is reasonably fast. Each player you add, rounds per hour go downhill significantly. As T3 indicated crowded conditions and side bets are the big culprits.

I am a player that really tries to get into the quick moving games, for a secondary reason, I want to get in and out, exposing myself and spread as minimally as possible. Try as I might, I am sure my average rounds per hour is well below 100 (it's not a stat that I track), even with the occasional heads up play 'bumping up' those numbers. It's just another one of those things that are deteriorating about today's blackjack conditions.

I respectfully disagree. Im fairly confident i can average 200 hands an hour. It would be more but i have been fairly conservative with 200. I simulated the exact speed type conditions in casino verite to what I experience on average when I play and I also factored in all the miscellaneous stuff already into my ballpark figure of 200 an hour. Whether it be side bet payoffs, players joining in and out of game, coloring up, buying in for large amounts with $20 bills, slow dealers, spilled drinks, etc, im fairly confident with my 200 hands an hour as a ballpark figure, it might be more or less but that's a good average. I also factored in an average of 3 players at the table as that seems to be a good number to go by.

The plan is also to play very short sessions no more than an hour as that is usually the time surveillance and pit need to study your play. Of course I also have a bunch of other cover ploys that I have up under my sleeve that will completely throw the pit boss off on our first encounter so he doesn't even give me another second look for that one hour im in there. Remember the phrase 'First impressions are everything"? Well combine that with the fact that I'll be be hitting them hard with short sessions they won't know what hit them. I will average 4-5 hours of table time a day using about 4-5 different casinos/shifts to get in those 4-5 hours maybe less depending on heat. It's gonna be a pure wong attack at +1 and out at 0 with Halves/full indices playing purely shoes, obviously since there are no wong-in pitch games. I also don't want to deal with any extra heat spreading aggressively in a pitch game or even spreading aggressively in a shoe game playing off the top, I rather wong in and out and keep my spread at 1-4 but with huge units, get in, get out, move.

Of course I have a lot more up my sleeve about how to stay under the radar, but that's just a small gist of it. It's just a waiting game until I get my target bankroll and am really thinking of now showing my face anymore for small stakes before i hit my rotations of stores hard in a year or so.

[Stealth]

**Update. Got about 5 rounds a minute at the speed that I believed to be the normal speed in real life when I play on average. So doing the math, Im getting around 300 hands an hour. Nice. And yes I lowered the number from around 7 a minute to 5 for the times when people buy in, side bet payoffs, and some slow dealers. I think 5 a minute is a good ballpark figure because I will also encounter faster dealers and conditions as well so I think 5 a minute is a good average to go by. To be even more conservative lets say 4 rounds a minute, in case I play with 3 or more people. That's 240 hands per hour. To be even more conservative Ill round it to 210 rounds per hour and I think that's a great number to go by. Unbelievable what it does to the win rate and how important game speed is as well as pen.

Is that 300 "rounds" of 1 hand per hour or 150 rounds of 2 hands per hour?.

I believe playing 2 hands per "round" is faster than playing one.

In your early post you indicated you were "pure wong type player". If that is true then your 300 hands per hour is unrealistic. Generally only 15-18% of the rounds are positive counts but the negative counts are certainly part of your "hands per hour" effect.

Not real certain what you are trying to answer..? hi speed heads up 300 HPH or wong in/out effect? or both?

[ZeeBabar]

Four black and 4 green is $500....that's not a good return for $800 in cash. 4 black, 3 green, $75 in red and $25 in white is $575....that's better but still a lousy return for $800.

I meant 4 Blacks, 4 hundred in Greens!!

[ZenKinG]

Is that 300 "rounds" of 1 hand per hour or 150 rounds of 2 hands per hour?.

I believe playing 2 hands per "round" is faster than playing one.

In your early post you indicated you were "pure wong type player". If that is true then your 300 hands per hour is unrealistic. Generally only 15-18% of the rounds are positive counts but the negative counts are certainly part of your "hands per hour" effect.

Not real certain what you are trying to answer..? hi speed heads up 300 HPH or wong in/out effect? or both?

Well im counting 'hands observed' while backcounting as hands per hour and I took the speed of the average speed conditions when others are playing into my ballpark number already as well. From what Im aware hands observed count towards N0. I will also be playing two hands when i jump in.

[Three]

Im fairly confident i can average 200 hands an hour. It would be more but i have been fairly conservative with 200.

There is an intersection of rare events that need to happen to get 200 hands per hour. The obvious one is you must be able to play that fast. We will assume you are in that as a universe. Then you need to find a heads up game. The third part of the intersecting sets that must be met to get 200 rounds per hour is a dealer that deals that fast. they are not easy to find. I have seen some that try to deal really fast and are not that fast and have cards flying off the table in the process. Players can't retrieve the card from the floor so a suit must be called. So much for 200 rounds per hour.

The best way to assure you can get this is to have a reserved table with a particular dealer that you specify. Needless to say requesting a particular dealer will raise some red flags. Then to get the reserved table you usually need to establish casino credit. I doubt you will be doing that. Some of the biggest moneymaking casinos will offer a reserved table over a certain betting threshold so you can get the most hands in per hour. That helps the casino make money. A place like this is your best bet but whenever I took them up on this offer the table comes with a suit to watch your play. If you don't get bounced after a certain amount of time the suit MAY lose interest. Needless to say a good act and especially a good understanding of effective cover is a must. I didn't get flagged but decided the added scrutiny wasn't worth the increase in speed or the heads up game. You might get a slow dealer. the dealer's job is to make you as comfortable about playing as possible. It is not to blow you away with a fast game. Remember your audience is there to decide if you are a threat or a potential cash cow whether counter or not. You need to be careful how you try to get the dealer to deal faster.

[Three]

Well im counting 'hands observed' while backcounting as hands per hour and I took the speed of the average speed conditions when others are playing into my ballpark number already as well. From what Im aware hands observed count towards N0. I will also be playing two hands when i jump in.

Seriously. You will be watching someone else play at their speed and count those rounds and expect anything north of 100 rounds per hour? Then you wong in and have to play at a table with someone else? You will never ever even come close to 200 rounds per hour. Just think about it for a minute!!!!

[Frank Galvin]

As commented upon by Stealth, it sounds like ZKG is actually referring to Hands Per Hour, and not Rounds Per Hour. Just a disinterested passerby's perception of ZKG's postings.

Am I misreading his comments, or is he including not only those "hands" (not just rounds) that he is backcounting while wonging, but also every hand per round played by him and others at the table?

[ZenKinG]

Seriously. You will be watching someone else play at their speed and count those rounds and expect anything north of 100 rounds per hour? Then you wong in and have to play at a table with someone else? You will never ever even come close to 200 rounds per hour. Just think about it for a minute!!!!

I have thought about it plenty, which is why I simmed the speed of the average table I watch on casino verite. I took a ballpark speed that seemed about right when I backcount and put it into casino verite and used the online stopwatch. About 4 rounds a minute. Keep in mind I search for tables to backcount with fairly good speed conditions, such as players not playin side bets, dealer speed, and good natural flow to the game with no interruptions of story telling from the dealer to the player. If i see anything disruptive to speed, im quick to move to another dealer shuffling. Of course in a perfect world there is limited tables, but I tend to do well with strategy and like I said all that miscellaneous stuff already took my 240 hands an hour and dropped it to 200 to be conservative. I'm sure there will also be many times where I get around 300 an hour and sometimes 100 an hour so it will all average out and I believe 200 is highly attainable.

[ZenKinG]

As commented upon by Stealth, it sounds like ZKG is actually referring to Hands Per Hour, and not Rounds Per Hour. Just a disinterested passerby's perception of ZKG's postings.

Am I misreading his comments, or is he including not only those "hands" (not just rounds) that he is backcounting while wonging, but also every hand per round played by him and others at the table?

Im referring to rounds per hour. Im doing both because im a pure wong player. Rounds observed while backcounting and rounds played once I jump in with two hands